WHEN the news came through on November 26th that up to 24 Pakistani soldiers had been killed in a cross-border incident involving American and Afghan forces, your correspondent was at ISAF HQ in Kabul preparing to interview General John Allen, the commander of coalition forces in Afghanistan. The mood at ISAF was one of deep shock combined with a sense of foreboding. The timing was awful. General Allen had only just returned from a visit to General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, chief of Pakistan's army general staff, in a bid to improve relations that were already under the severest strain. As well as closing the land corridor that provides ISAF with up to half of its supplies, Pakistan announced that it would boycott the following week's international conference in Bonn on the future of Afghanistan. The only (grim) smiles were caused by a reporter from a German news magazine who took a German general at ISAF to task for what he seemed to think was a deliberate attempt by America to sabotage his country's hosting of a successful conference.
Although the official line was to offer Pakistan condolences for the loss of life and to wait for the results of an official investigation before saying anything more, it was clear that there had been a major “screw up”. It wasn't just the lethality of what had occurred on the eastern border that was troubling—although it was the worst such “friendly fire” incident involving Pakistani forces in the ten years of the war—but the realisation that the air strikes had continued unabated for up to two hours. The release on December 22nd of the findings of the investigation largely bears out Pakistan's version of events. After coming under fire from the Mohmand tribal region on the other side of the border, the American and Afghan commandos called in air strikes, apparently confident that there were no Pakistani forces in the areas and that the strikes would be hitting insurgents. That was wrong. The mistake was further compounded when the Pakistani border control centre was given incorrect data about where the fighting was taking place. Whether either General Allen or America's defence secretary, Leon Panetta, will now issue the apology the Pakistanis have demanded is not yet certain. There is a precedent: Mr Panetta's predecessor, Robert Gates, apologised in 2010 after a similar incident.
Underlying the whole sorry story is the corrosive lack of trust between ISAF and Pakistan. ISAF is reluctant to tell Pakistani border forces precisely when and where it is carrying out operations against insurgents because it believes (with some justification) that the Taliban and their allies have in the past been tipped off by the Pakistanis when raids have been imminent. For their part, the insurgents often try to provoke incidents by launching attacks from positions near Pakistani troop positions. From Pakistan's point of view, its border guards, poorly-equipped and with little situational awareness, are innocent victims caught in the crossfire. The problem is only likely to get worse. After the security gains of the past 18 months in the south and west, particularly in Helmand and Kandahar provinces, the main focus of next year's fighting is likely to be in the still very violent east of Afghanistan, which borders the Pakistani tribal area of North Waziristan (where the formidable Haqqanis are based) and other lawless territories to the north. Unless ISAF and the Pakistanis can find a way of working better together, the potential for further bloody and politically destructive accidents will grow.



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As a reaction to this drone attack (and in continuation with secret Osama attack) Pakistan is distancing itself from the US. This could be the best thing for Pakistan and the region. With the flow of free US money freezing up, Pakistan will focus on its economic growth. Such focus has a natural tendency to push terrorism to the fringe of state policy. And a prosperous Pakistan, that stands on its own feet with US crutches, is the nest thing that can happen to his region; and to India.
Once the war in Afghanistan has come to a head, the ISI can take some of the billions of dollars it was funneled by the US and focus on destabilizing India instead of continuing its efforts to act as a central leadership for the Taliban and its affiliated organizations in destabilizing Afghanistan. Somehow, I think strengthening the economy won't be a top priority for such an organization, particularly since it is autonomous. Hopefully India can be effective in countering the inevitable onslaught of Pakistani shenanigans that will be coming their way as soon as they (Pakistan) are able to shift focus from defeating the US in Afghanistan.
As of till now, USA has not been able to achieve its unstated goals in Afghanistan. naturally USA will not spend billions of $ just to catch few fugitives; American public wont allow such a spendthrift use of public money.
However it is closer to undeclared aims/objectives.
a. strategic encirclement of china.
b. watch dog on world's second largest energy resources (Central Asia).
c. encirclement of Iran and lessening its influence in central Asia through Afg.
d. Contain or threaten Nuclear armed Pakistan (only Muslim nuclear armed country).
e. manifestation of Indo-US strategic alliance resulting into India as new regional power to counter China.
Analysis:
a. US policies are governed by not the show case presidents but think tanks. these think tanks think may be 100 years ahead.
b. US policies are also governed by its funders; mainly Israel. and Israel has a huge influence of Zionists.
c. US presence and current instability in Afg has put US in a catch-22 situation. Russia is benefiting the most as it is regulating major % of Central Asia's trade and Oil.
d. US is not going to leave Afg; they are here to stay. most uncomfortable is that other than US and Taliban many players are involved; each having different national interest:
a. Pakistan: wants a friendly Afg and wants to derive strategic depth against India.
b. India: wants a pro Indian and anti Pakistan Afg govt.
c. Iran: wants US out and in mean time bleed it to slow death.
d. Russia: wants a slow death for USA and benefit in the mean time through trade flow of Central Asia.
e. China: will come into play in a decade time after it opens up.
f. GULF: wants to enjoy its hegemony on oil trade. so current situation suits them.
g. EU: wants an early amicable solution guaranteeing control of oil through Central Asia and does not want to spend more and more.
CONCLUSIONS:
a. If USA wants to control oil and trade it will have to listen Pakistan.
b. If USA wants to withdraw bulk of its forces and still control Afg it will again have to listen Pakistan.
c. For remaining objectives it will have to sweat more.
d. Pakistan is more than willing to cooperate with USA provided it shows flexibility and get out of clutches of radicals in its policy making loop.
P.S: president Eisenhower said " wordict of history can neither be denied or defied". so study Afghans before making policy.
It is not the first time nor will it be last that USA will offer any apology over its blundering air power!
George Bush Senior is on record that America will never apologise for any thing it has done over the past or may do in the future!
With such arrogance is it any surprise that this blatant act of aggreesion by US air strike inside Pakistan will elicit an apology!!
Of course there ia a reduction in the degree of US arrogance that the Pentagon this time says there is a lack of cordination between US and Pakistan!
This sop will not mollify the Pakistanis and rightly so.Pakistan has lost more soldiers than US in the war in Afghnistan.A war America has started in mere act of blind vengence by Bush and his NeoCons!
Flame Z, I stand by what I had stated in my analysis of the casualties of the 1971 conflict. Your response to my post only comes across as petulant, and makes my point about emotional statements.
If you have some objective reasoning behind your stance, please share it.
To clarify, with respect to the number of prisoners of war issue raised by you, since you are now stating that you meant only to refer to the conflicts post world war II, may I draw your attention to the hundreds of thousands of prisoners of war taken during the Chinese civil war (1945-49) and the surrender of the nearly one million strong South Vietnam armed forces(1975).
This reminds me of what once Winston Churchill said about Yankees:
'You can always count on Americans to do the right thing — after they’ve tried everything else."
@ Live-on-Hope
You have not response to my comment. I presume you agree with me or you lose of arguement.
You take offence to my english so I give you a return. Simple...
"I will, as soon as I reach heaven let Einstein know how stupid he was when he often declared his belief in the Almighty.
However, I will agree with the idea that Religion has been the factor behind too many problems in this world."
PL123: First I don't know whether you can go to heaven at all, second I don't know whether there is a heaven.
If you are more mighty than Einstein, then you are not commenting here in the forum. You will be a cabinet by your Julia already.
Not only religion is the many problems in the world but any ideologies, including economist, politic etc. They are equally good/bad if this is in a wrong/right hand. Simple!!
"Perhaps you would recommend some one like Mao or Saddam Hussein ?
This is what I would call ' Kicking your own goal'"
PL123: I can't recomment any but Indian has to find their way, I am sure you will have a Indian Mao or Indian Saddam Hussein ! When I see the misery in India, your government is already a incompetent dictator which changing every 4 years. Well you are kicking a miserable goal!!
" well PL123,
India is in a proud place, compared to Pakistan and even China.
We have not annihilated millions as both of your countries have.
We have developed a sense of tolerance towards other minorities that is very much in contrast to Pakistan.
and unlike Pakistan We have developed a national pride due to this pride plus a pride in our national heroes, Gandhi being just one of them. Having travelled through India, I have found this nationalism very alive and well displayed."
PL123: Ha Ha!! What a proud place like India!! Proud is no use when you're living so misery in front of the world. Can you stand up and say you have no caste system? Sorry to mention it. But you are right that Indian are tolerant to minorities but not to their own Dalits living in slum which you don't/don't want to see.
" I have analysed that this disdain applies to our using of the British systems , especially Democracy.
Unfortunately your analysis needs wanting.
Pakistan, and most of Africa wondered away from these British Systems, as has Hong Kong. AND whereever they have wondered away they get wonderful dictators like Zia-Ul-Huq, or General YahYah Khan, or Mugabe, or Idi Amin , or Nkrumah. I would even suggest to you that if you had democracy in China you would never have had Mao. Incidentally, without a good established system of democracy we had people like Hitler and Mussolini and Pol Pot.
With Democracy, we have people like Bernasconi. Between Mussolini and Bernasconi, I think most people prefer Bernasconi.... So democracy will eventually win."
PL123: Sorry, Hong Kong was never a democracy, so how can it wondered away from it!! It was half dictated by a British governor.
See how you (democracy lover) think of the election of N. African nations---Islamist now. It doesn't fit your taste, right !! So they must be a non-democracy or as you said NOT a good-established system of democracy then. And India (over 60 years) is a well-established system of democracy which full of corruption and broken roads. Is that a joke !!!
What is your logic here "Between Mussolini and Bernasconi,....So democracy will eventually win".
Democracy works in Britain, not neccessary works in India. And it is not working or working very lousy !! Indian' stomach is too weak for this strong medicine (democracy) !!
It is difficult to make sense of what people write when they use assumed names. It will make a more honest debate if people wrote under their own names.
Then, so many of the commenters write such awful English. At times I wonder how they get along with such grammar and spellings.
I am afraid we are so taken up with the trees that the woods has been hidden altogether.
The point really is that the US under Reagan used jihadis to get the Soviets out of Afghanistan. Then, the jihadis, trained in and by Pakistan with US and Saudi Arabia financing, went on to become terrorists under the benign encouragement of Pakistan Army and ISI, both of which themselves have been infiltrated by jihadis. It makes little difference whether you call them terrorists or anything else. It is a fact of the situation that Pakistan has been using terrorism as an instrument of its policies for at least 22 years: earlier it used insurgencies in India to create difficulties for the Indian government.
Now, terrorists may or may not be entirely in the control of the Pakistan Army and ISI, but they certainly have support of the Pakistani State, the Pakistani Government, the Pakistani Army, and ISI. In a word, terrorists are directly controlled and guided by Pakistan officially and all along the line. But they do things with proper care and manage to retain a large measure of deniability. Even US and other agencies have reported Pakistan's double game from day one after 9/11.
Mr Bush made a colossal error in recruiting Pakistan as an ally in the war against terror. He should have known that Pakistan was, and it still is, state sponsor of terror. No US leader shall ever have the guts to call things by their proper names, otherwise Pakistan should have been declared state sponsor of terror immediately after 9/11 and should have been treated as being on the other side of the line.
The world will pay a heavy price for US errors.
V. C. Bhutani, Delhi, India, Dec 29 2011, 1838 IST
An imposed war so that west can sleep without holding their cruch. Such is the reality of what we see after 10 years of war, I belive they (West)are a sorry bunch who keep telling them selves that they are right in killing people, that blood of some Pakistani or Afghan is worth spilling for their own gains. "Lie long enough that people start believing it"
Oh come out of your day dreaming people. There is not a single journalist who has the guts to write the reality on ground. How ISAF and the American forces are on there knees in Afghanistan. How they want to leave this place as of today. How 20 days of supply line stopped by Pakistan can leave poor american behinds filled with rashes as they dont have the toilet paper to clean themselves.
Live & Respect "Life", unlike the local sentiment propogated by the media. War in totality is the under current of few mindless bastards filling their desire for power & authority.
Well after 10 years tell me one good thing that has been achieved expect for mass killings, which was the forte of the criminals in the first place.
I know there are people who will disagree but come on ground and face realities that are, rather then shooting the moon.
An imposed war so that west can sleep without holding their cruch. Such is the reality of what we see after 10 years of war, I belive they (West)are a sorry bunch who keep telling them selves that they are right in killing people, that blood of some Pakistani or Afghan is worth spilling for their own gains. "Lie long enough that people start believing it"
Oh come out of your day dreaming people. There is not a single journalist who has the guts to write the reality on ground. How ISAF and the American forces are on there knees in Afghanistan. How they want to leave this place as of today. How 20 days of supply line stopped by Pakistan can leave poor american behinds filled with rashes as they dont have the toilet paper to clean themselves.
Live & Respect "Life", unlike the local sentiment propogated by the media. War in totality is the under current of few mindless bastards filling their desire for power & authority.
Well after 10 years tell me one good thing that has been achieved expect for mass killings, which was the forte of the criminals in the first place.
I know there are people who will disagree but come on ground and face realities that are, rather then shooting the moon.
It seems that a concentrated effort to cover up a premeditated attempt to drag Pakistan into open warfare is being orchestrated by the Pentagon with their shills in the neo conservative and so called liberal print and electronic media.
The fact of the matter is that it is an open secret in Pakistan that ISAF and more prominently Pentagon was trying to sneak in around 75 terrorists of Mullah Fadhlullah to carry out suicide bombings and create murder and mayhem. Their plan was to attack NATO and U.S. interests within Pakistan thereby giving the Pentagon and its handmaidens sufficient cause to carry out further incursions into Pakistan a la mode May 2nd action against OBL.
Furthermore, in a couple of months IMF another tool of the USA was to tighten further the economic screws against Pakistan.
Taking a bird's eyeview of the major bases USA has deployed in Afghanistan shows that the Indian consulates (4-5) in number are very closely sited at or near these bases.
A determined effort to bring to heel the ISI and the Pakistan army had swung into action 8-10 months before the attack on outposts on Boulder and Volcano.
With these pressures launched against Pakistan who have suffered
more than 3,500 soldiers and over 30,000 civilians, the MIC in USA
thought that by provoking a military reaction to the blatant 2 hour attacks on these outposts, they would have the necessary excuse to carry out extensive military actions against Pakistani strategic assets.
The Pak military did not fall into this trap and by closing the border (now in its 32nd day)and by forcing closure of Shamsi UAV base has put the ISAF and Pentagon into a bind. Brigadier General Clark tasked with carrying out the investigation is like telling the thief to catch himself as he was the person in charge of this operation. A half cooked report wishy washy in its summary in effect rejected by Pakistan Army shows its worthless nature.
The northern supply line will cost 5-6 times the cost that Pentagon and ISAF enjoyed for close to 9 years at Pakistan's expense.
With trillions of dollars swiped from the unknowing American people, it looks as if the 1% against the 99% is still prevailing with the MIC in cahoots with the Wall street gang of robbers. Draghi will nail in the coffin to the European public like the Pentagon and Wall street gangs and then when all is over, the west will wonder how it all happened!
Hey soormaa,
You must be the "Baghdad_Bob" or Joseph Goebbels of Pakistan, eh???
You Pakistanis are "pathological liars" !! Read the Atlantic's "Ally from hell!"
It seems that a concentrated effort to cover up a premeditated attempt to drag Pakistan into open warfare is being orchestrated by the Pentagon with their shills in the neo conservative and so called liberal print and electronic media.
........
Soorma :
To me this sounds like a conspiracy theory.
However, in the western world, Pakistan is known as the land of conspiracy theories.
In any case : your point seems to be amiss - Why would the Pentagon be so stupid - Remember that these people from the USA are far more intelli8gent and sophisticated then your generals will ever get to be.
.......
The northern supply line will cost 5-6 times the cost that Pentagon and ISAF enjoyed for close to 9 years at Pakistan's expense.
..
SOORMA:
This point is reasonable. How did you workd out these figures?
Supposing these are true - and the USA eventually switches over to the Northern Supply line altogether.
Their costs will decrease considerably because they will be withdrawing their troops in 2014. Paying their troops is a very high cost compared to the cost of the Capital involved in supplying materials to the Afghan Army.
NOW - At this point what negotiating stance is Pakistan going to take, when it goes to ask the USA for more money to fight it's internal terrorist wars? and to help with the disastrous budget situation in Pakistan ?
PAKISTAN has been Helping Al-Queda - SO why should the USA help you? The US voting population has Pakistan on the top of their Hate list... they would not tolerate a politician who wants to help you.
ALL I can say is that this supply line is the negotiating point left for you( And remember that this supply is used for about 40% of the total supplies for Afghanistan- down from 80% 2 years ago.
Perhaps your only friend China will help ?
Point to note - China will extract more from you then it will give you-Take a look at what it has done in South East Asia.
....
You also talk about 30000 civilians dying in this terrorist war.
Unfortunately the devil is in the detail for Pakistan - Most of those Civilians have died because of the terrorism by your friends-the Taliban, against yourselves.
Dawn Newspaper tells us that most of the Muslims killed in Pakistan have been killed by other Muslims, and for that reason I would not be throwing those figures into this particular discussion if I were you.
A humble message to All Pakistanis and Indians Idiots...
http://inam101.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/pakisan-and-india-fight-and-west...
Stop fighting... Its Western agenda to engage us and use their weapons on each other with money that can be used on our poors...
by Aryan Nazi yet?
BBC headline: Indian student murdered in Salford street attack
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-16331668.
...........................
Once again - irrelavent points. If you do not have anything relevant to contribute to a good debate, please refrain from making a comment.
Racism against Indians and CHINESE is quite common in most Western countries, My freind.
In fact we have a famous politician in Australia, called Pauline Hanson , whose fitrst Speech in Parliament was to ask our Government to stop all Chinese Immigration because 'They do not mix, and they keep themselves to themselves'
Just google Pauline Hanson and asian migrants.(Asian is common term for Chinese in Australia, but for Indians in the UK)
And stick to relevancy in the future.
Incidentally NAZI ARYANS are associated with Gernmany by 99% of the literate world - NOT with Indians.
You will not be too popular in Germany, where you live, if you constantly talk about NAZI ARYANS, for a country that is very ashamed of it.
My advice to you - get literate and relevant !
European/Aryan nazis and pakistani/muslim jihadists have a lot in common. Both are brainwashed by their nihilistic supremacist ideology in one case based on a mythical, scientifically invalid, superior Aryan race and in the other case based on a historically invalid, mythical superior religion, Islam.
In the case of race, ie, Aryan race there is no scientific basis for that at all. The concept of race is a social darwinistic concept and not a scientific concept.
In the case of Islam, the historicity is questionable. It is a mish-mash of Sumerian /Babylonian /Mesopotamian /Judaic/Egyptian /Caananite myths. All religions with no exceptions are based on mythology, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindusim, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism,Shintoism, Taoism , Zoroastrianism, etc.
It is insulting to human intelligence that in the 21st century people still believe in the concept of race, religion and God !!
Sincerely,
A scientist and an atheist
Thank you SITHARTHA KUMAR,
Firstly I was actually replying to the Chinese stooge living in Germany - Unfortunately , despite clicking on reply, the web blog here did not indicate that I was replying.
However , although I do agree with much of your sentiment , it is also arrogant to claim that atheists are the only intelligent people around.
You do have some other points that I have to discuss.
You talk about Punjabistan. The Punjabi s may be the majority, but the real problem is Islam itself.
Look around, and you will find that in Sunni Islam( as opposed to Shia Islam) the problem has always been that the Islamic identity is expected to be paramount.
This goes against the grain for Human psychology, which likes to identify with groups - starting from small groups(villages or immediate friend circle) building up to larger groups ( Nationalism)
Over their short history therefore, the Paks started life as wanting to be the leading nation for Islam - Hence their taking up the flag for Anti-Judaism despite never having dealt with Jews.
They often seem to think that the Palestinian issue is much more important then the Pakistani Budget) and so they seem to be covertly helping Al-Queda .
Their nationalism consists of an anti India sentiment and not connected to any pride in Pakistan itself.
I have just finished the book on Advani's blogs. It seems that he has discussed this very issue with Benazir Bhutto. Benazir's take on the real problem with Pakistan was that
> > The military preferred to be involved in the nation's affairs. They were not submissive to a better informed civilian Government
(refrence: Memogate)
I just think that the real problem is that Pakistan has never had a Statesman - a man of principles who really laid down the founding principles of the nation.
I have often said that Pakiustan will not survive as a nation for too long because it cannot hold it's head high with pride about their short history, and so therefore there is no of that feeling about being a single nation.
Look at other nations - and very few have a history of the type of intolerance that Pakistan has towards other small groups -
As Advani says in the book - As a sindhi they settled with other Sindhis in Mumbai or Gujarat. Sindhi politicians joined a Politic al party on ideological basis, NOT on a group basis as has happened in Pakistan where the Mujahirs and the Sindhis and the Punjabis are in Parties associated with thir language group.
It is insulting to human intelligence that in the 21st century people still believe in the concept of race, religion and God !!
---------------------------
I can't agree more on that!!!
Pakistan's Islamic terrorist is world known. Now more and more fanatic in the world. Recently is Jewish fanatic in Israel. As you probably know Hindu has fanatic too, they build a army to fight Islamist in India. (I watched this in a documentary in Germany) What a shame of this "in the name of religion" do bad things...
"In the case of Islam, the historicity is questionable. It is a mish-mash of Sumerian /Babylonian /Mesopotamian /Judaic/Egyptian /Caananite myths. All religions with no exceptions are based on mythology, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindusim, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism,Shintoism, Taoism , Zoroastrianism, etc."
Just want to make a correction here. I think Taoism should not included here.
@ Live-on-Hope
Since you are out of topic, then I must well add some arguement!!
"Firstly I was actually replying to the Chinese stooge living in Germany - Unfortunately , despite clicking on reply, the web blog here did not indicate that I was replying."
PL123: Wrong! I am not a stooge, but comment different than you. I don't share the same opinion as yours.
"However , although I do agree with much of your sentiment , it is also arrogant to claim that atheists are the only intelligent people around."
PL123: This is not arrogant at all because simply atheists don't believe anything, so will not be used by any religion guru/sect to kill, loot, brainwash any individual. More important we don't pay religion tax!!
"You do have some other points that I have to discuss.
You talk about Punjabistan. The Punjabi s may be the majority, but the real problem is Islam itself."
PL123: Wrong! The problem is not totally on Islam, other religion are the same. The problem is fanatic who use the name of islam to do bad thing, to gain power and money..
"Look around, and you will find that in Sunni Islam( as opposed to Shia Islam) the problem has always been that the Islamic identity is expected to be paramount."
PL123: Tell me which religion is not expected to be paramount???
You can't find any !!
"This goes against the grain for Human psychology, which likes to identify with groups - starting from small groups(villages or immediate friend circle) building up to larger groups ( Nationalism)
Over their short history therefore, the Paks started life as wanting to be the leading nation for Islam - Hence their taking up the flag for Anti-Judaism despite never having dealt with Jews.
They often seem to think that the Palestinian issue is much more important then the Pakistani Budget) and so they seem to be covertly helping Al-Queda .
Their nationalism consists of an anti India sentiment and not connected to any pride in Pakistan itself."
PL123: Pakistan and India urgently need a dictator, so no fanatic can overrun the country. Look at Iraq, under Saddam every islamic are peaceful, no conflicts. Now democracy in Iraq, conflict religious fighting immediately. People are just selfish for power and money. Indian are no different than Pakistan.
"I just think that the real problem is that Pakistan has never had a Statesman - a man of principles who really laid down the founding principles of the nation."
PL123: India has Gandhi and vision, where is India now?? A stateman can't help if you have so many states, races, language, dialects, and interest to please. In democracy, people don't like absolute power, so a powerless government with many small parties fighting in the parliament is a norm, the market reform in India is a good example.
"I have often said that Pakiustan will not survive as a nation for too long because it cannot hold it's head high with pride about their short history, and so therefore there is no of that feeling about being a single nation."
PL123: India survive is already a wonder to Great Britain !!
Firstly PL123
You take offence to my spelling mistakes - Unforunately, I do have a temporary eye sight problem.
................
PL123: This is not arrogant at all because simply atheists don't believe anything, so will not be used by any religion guru/sect to kill, loot, brainwash any individual. More important we don't pay religion tax!!
...................
I will, as soon as I reach heaven let Einstein know how stupid he was when he often declared his belief in the Almighty.
However, I will agree with the idea that Religion has been the factor behind too many problems in this world.
........
PL123: Pakistan and India urgently need a dictator, so no fanatic can overrun the country..........
..............
Perhaps you would recommend some one like Mao or Saddam Hussein ?
This is what I would call ' Kicking your own goal'
..................
PL123: India has Gandhi and vision, where is India now??
....
well PL123,
India is in a proud place, compared to Pakistan and even China.
We have not annihilated millions as both of your countries have.
We have developed a sense of tolerance towards other minorities that is very much in contrast to Pakistan.
and unlike Pakistan We have developed a national pride due to this pride plus a pride in our national heroes, Gandhi being just one of them. Having travelled through India, I have found this nationalism very alive and well displayed.
..............................
PL123: India survive is already a wonder to Great Britain !!
....
I have analysed that this disdain applies to our using of the British systems , especially Democracy.
Unfortunately your analysis needs wanting.
Pakistan, and most of Africa wondered away from these British Systems, as has Hong Kong. AND whereever they have wondered away they get wonderful dictators like Zia-Ul-Huq, or General YahYah Khan, or Mugabe, or Idi Amin , or Nkrumah. I would even suggest to you that if you had democracy in China you would never have had Mao.
Incidentally, without a good established system of democracy we had people like Hitler and Mussolini and Pol Pot.
With Democracy, we have people like Bernasconi. Between Mussolini and Bernasconi, I think most people prefer Bernasconi.... So democracy will eventually win.
@ Live-on-Hope
You take offence to my english so I give you a return. Simple...
"I will, as soon as I reach heaven let Einstein know how stupid he was when he often declared his belief in the Almighty.
However, I will agree with the idea that Religion has been the factor behind too many problems in this world."
PL123: First I don't know whether you can go to heaven at all, second I don't know whether there is a heaven.
If you are more mighty than Einstein, then you are not commenting here in the forum. You will be a cabinet by your Julia already.
Not only religion is the many problems in the world but any ideologies, including economist, politic etc. They are equally good/bad if this is in a wrong/right hand. Simple!!
"Perhaps you would recommend some one like Mao or Saddam Hussein ?
This is what I would call ' Kicking your own goal'"
PL123: I can't recomment any but Indian has to find their way, I am sure you will have a Indian Mao or Indian Saddam Hussein ! When I see the misery in India, your government is already a incompetent dictator which changing every 4 years. Well you are kicking a miserable goal!!
" well PL123,
India is in a proud place, compared to Pakistan and even China.
We have not annihilated millions as both of your countries have.
We have developed a sense of tolerance towards other minorities that is very much in contrast to Pakistan.
and unlike Pakistan We have developed a national pride due to this pride plus a pride in our national heroes, Gandhi being just one of them. Having travelled through India, I have found this nationalism very alive and well displayed."
PL123: Ha Ha!! What a proud place like India!! Proud is no use when you're living so misery in front of the world. Can you stand up and say you have no caste system? Sorry to mention it. But you are right that Indian are tolerant to minorities but not to their own Dalits living in slum which you don't/don't want to see.
" I have analysed that this disdain applies to our using of the British systems , especially Democracy.
Unfortunately your analysis needs wanting.
Pakistan, and most of Africa wondered away from these British Systems, as has Hong Kong. AND whereever they have wondered away they get wonderful dictators like Zia-Ul-Huq, or General YahYah Khan, or Mugabe, or Idi Amin , or Nkrumah. I would even suggest to you that if you had democracy in China you would never have had Mao. Incidentally, without a good established system of democracy we had people like Hitler and Mussolini and Pol Pot.
With Democracy, we have people like Bernasconi. Between Mussolini and Bernasconi, I think most people prefer Bernasconi.... So democracy will eventually win."
PL123: Sorry, Hong Kong was never a democracy, so how can it wondered away from it!! It was half dictated by a British governor.
See how you (democracy lover) think of the election of N. African nations---Islamist now. It doesn't fit your taste, right !! So they must be a non-democracy or as you said NOT a good-established system of democracy then. And India (over 60 years) is a well-established system of democracy which full of corruption and broken roads. Is that a joke !!!
What is your logic here "Between Mussolini and Bernasconi,....So democracy will eventually win".
Democracy works in Britain, not neccessary works in India. And it is not working or working very lousy !! Indian' stomach is too weak for this strong medicine (democracy) !!
For intelligent and social species like humans religion plays an important role.
I too am an atheist but I know the value religions.
Example:- If too entities both belonging to different religions or race come to you with a problem and one of them shares a common religion or race with you, then no matter how un-biased you are, you will mentally want to favor that person.
like wise:
The aim of Hindu saints, Buddhist monks, christian missionaries, muslim jihadists etc are to bring the world under a single religion and that would result in much less violence. If the world comes together as one single nation then there would be no room for wars between two nations "as Alexander the great said", if there is only one race then there will be equality among humans "as Hitler and other racists believe".If the world is under one king then there will be a stable administration "as Chengiz khan believed"
But the confusion is which religion, which nation, which race and ultimately which ruler.
It is like every king fights the war to bring eternal peace, but that peace never came and the wars never end.
Slow down buddy
Hongkong never had democracy and that is the reason why it is not as strong as the other democratic nations like India.
Saddam Hussein was a dictator and there was no fights in Islam world is a foul talk. the world knows about Iran and Iraq quarrel.
As you mentioned Indian government is already a incompetent dictator which changes every 4 years and that is exactly the point. The Indian government is behaving like a dictator and is not doing any good to the nation and it doesn't change every 4 years, they just win the elections and come back to power.
Yes we can stand up and say that we have no cast system.
You have seen only one half of dalits who are in slums but you have not seen the other half running the administration.
Our population is huge and so the corruption index is high but if you measure corruption per person the index would have been low.
Democracy has worked in India better than it has for Britain, India is the biggest Democracy on earth.
Our democracy is not the English medicine to be hard, its Indian Ayurveda which might be slow but has long lasting effects and we have already digested it.
The only place we are behind is economy, and we will certainly come to a good economic position.
Remember never underestimate Indians, we were the richest people in terms of wealth, science, technology, literature and politics when the west were still in stone age and learning to make under-wares from animal skin.
@ FrameZ
It is nice to exchange opinion with you.
" Hongkong never had democracy and that is the reason why it is not as strong as the other democratic nations like India."
PL123: Hong Kong was never a independant country, just a 7 millions city, bigger than Singapore, GDP and living standard is the same as Tokyoer and New Yorker. How can you compare HK with India. It is an insult to HK.
Hong Kong had never democracy until British HK government was preparing to leave HK. At that time they introduced sort of democracy to HK gradually. I called it half democracy and half dictate because most of the policies were made by governor and HK officials (servants) just enforced it. (the parliament was just a stamp) HK officials were trained to take orders from their governor. Nowaday's HK officials are having the same attitute of the old colony period. I guess it happen the same as in India.
"Saddam Hussein was a dictator and there was no fights in Islam world is a foul talk. the world knows about Iran and Iraq quarrel."
PL123: I mean basically there is no internal fight between the 2 big group of Islamic inside Iraq. Saddam Hussein was strong enough to hold them peacefully under his dictatorship.
" As you mentioned Indian government is already a incompetent dictator which changes every 4 years and that is exactly the point. The Indian government is behaving like a dictator and is not doing any good to the nation and it doesn't change every 4 years, they just win the elections and come back to power."
PL123: Do you still believe in corrupted democracy system which voters got bribe from politicians either with presents, cash, or empty promises. I don't mean Chinese system is good, far from that...
Be re-elected is their goal, nothing else.
"Yes we can stand up and say that we have no cast system.
You have seen only one half of dalits who are in slums but you have not seen the other half running the administration.
Our population is huge and so the corruption index is high but if you measure corruption per person the index would have been low."
PL123: That I can't agree with you. As long as I see the corruption in all level, I can't say it is better now. Some Dalits (very small number) becomes politicians, businessmen, scholars..., at the same time they reach to those class who surpress the poors. Now India has all kind of subvention/benefit to Dalits which I think it is a kind of corruption to win votes. You made them depend on social welfare forever. It is better to creat job, but Indian bureaucratie is so huge and corrupte, how can business survive before they even startup.
"Democracy has worked in India better than it has for Britain, India is the biggest Democracy on earth.
Our democracy is not the English medicine to be hard, its Indian Ayurveda which might be slow but has long lasting effects and we have already digested it."
PL123: Let me predict a bit. Britain is going to the end of its democracy (summer riots, incompetent Cameron government), and India follow suit. We have a saying "First, things rot and then reborn" 萬物先腐而後生. And I hope India will be reborn very soon since India is already quite rot. I hope Anna (?) success.
"The only place we are behind is economy, and we will certainly come to a good economic position."
PL123: Not only economy. Only economy can'T do the job, infrastructure, education, citizens aware of hygiene and their backwardness, more important not only thinking SELF, instead as a whole.
"Remember never underestimate Indians, we were the richest people in terms of wealth, science, technology, literature and politics when the west were still in stone age and learning to make under-wares from animal skin."
PL123: I know, That is why USA are so afraid of China and India's potential of challenging them as Weltmacht.
Human-right, free speech are all smoke, to control the world as they like is USA's goal.
Let me say. China also a old civilization as India. But So what!! We have to accept the fact we were/are still backward. China had wasted at least 100 years of time to re-establish the country until Deng's reform.
India need a quicker response from clean politicians without bureaucratie. India need some new idea, like internally competition between states. See who come out first and win. As a whole it is not functioning too well, but it doesn't mean impossible..
"Ayurveda" can cure minor sickness and pain only, for a real sick man may be stronger medicine a better choice.
We do have something in common though!!
One thing that you are wrong about Ayurveda, it has the ability and has practically cured many kinds of cancers and birth defects which the west is still breaking their heads on.
well lets keep medicines aside.
I do agree to your remarks.
The remarks you gave are kind and genuine.
I do agree that HK is too forward in GDP but just imagine if India or China turn into an expansionist mode and attack HK, would it last even a single day.
Countries like HK, Morishes, Malaysia, Singapore, Dubai etc. are earning massively, their GDP is huge and incomparable to ours, but they still remain with the mercy of us or other countries like us. They relay on us for protection, manpower and resources.
HK is not really stronger than India even economically. India can buy HK if it liquidizes all its reserves.
Moreover the ones who are earning in these countries are foreigners and when they leave they will take away the wealth too.
On the long run these countries can ensure existence only under our shadows.
"Under Saddam Hussein there were no internal fights" can be justified because, in a place where people cant speak for themselves, how can they speak against someone else. I think you got my point.
The main problem with Indians is their mentality.
Centuries of slavery and poverty has resulted that those people from backward class coming into power try to bring others of their own class to a higher atatus and hence support "Reservations".
Political corruption in India has gone beyond bearable limits and we the citizens are not silent. We are protesting against corruption but to fight something at a political level, we need political support and that is exactly where we are deficient.
Anna Hazare made an Impact and we are following his ideals. Jan Lokpal is yet to come up, which might help to fight political corruption.
To have a good infrastructure, education, social aware about hygiene are all in our minds too. For this we need a good work force.
We produce more engineers in one year than America produces babies in a year. Our education system might be the toughest but it is the most effective and one of the best educational institutions are in India. Some of the population is aware of social hygiene they only need to make others aware.
India has industrialists like Ajay Choudry who founded HCL, which had more market than Apple and IBM, but thanks to our government's corruption today IBM and APPLE are at least a 100 times bigger than HCL.
India started the race 20 years after China did and China is 17 years ahead of India. So the fact is India has been growing faster than China.
China is a country where the govt. and its policies are the reason for its development and contrarily India is a country where govt. and its policies is the reason for its backwardness.
Dictatorship and Democracy both have their pros & cons and it only depends upon the view point of individuals and the conditions of the events that follow the regime.
There was once a dictator Krishnadevaraaya in India and in his time diamonds and gold jewels where sold on street sides as if they were vegetables and there was another dictator named Tuglak when hundreds of people died because of his foolishness.
It all depends on the dictator and in democracy everything depends on the people themselves and the administration will be excellent provided the population is wise and if not the administration can turn hazardous.
FrameZ
I say again. Hong Kong is NOT a country. Hong Kong is a city which belongs to China, a special administration zone of China.
I read Anna Hazare anti-corruption bill was not passed in the parliament last Thursday, too bad.
It would be good Pakistan and India cooperate together, India and Pakistan are basically same country with different religions. This is the silly religion difference to make enemy. Stop this sillyness.
There is no religious or ideological difference between India and Pakistan. Its purely a military and political difference.
India has nearly the same number of Muslims as Pakistan has so no place for such difference. There is nothing silly.
before, the fight was for Kashmir and now it for Afghan influence.
Pakistan govt. call it a religious difference to wake a Islamic nationalism. They are manipulating their own people.
As is said before the politicians want to protect themselves so they wouldn't let Anna's mission to be successful. But we are not going to let it this way, we will put more of protests and hunger strikes.
We will die but not let the corrupt get away this time.
Hong Kong is a city nation like the Vatican city.
It is leased to China and not a part of China. Now Hong Kong wants to be independent but as most of Hong Kong is Chinese populated there is not much of a support for it and so Hong Kong remains with China.
Hong Kong is a city nation like the Vatican city.
It is leased to China and not a part of China. Now Hong Kong wants to be independent but as most of Hong Kong is Chinese populated there is not much of a support for it and so Hong Kong remains with China.
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FrameZ
You are "absolutely" wrong. Britain handed over Hong Kong back to CHina in 1997 under "One nation two systems". So HK has capitalism and regain their freedom and half democracy system, and CHina is communism. That is fact and simple is so. There was/is never a talking/discussion of independent of Hong Kong. HK can never survive alone economic and politically.
If Indian Hindu are so tolerate to islamic, then I will not see documentary of Hindu terrorist (army) in western media!? The problem lies on religion different.
I mentioned that there is no ideological or religious difference between India and "Pakistan", I certainly agree that there are differences between Hindus and Muslims.
India-Pakistan doesn't mean Hindu-Muslim.
After all can you mention one country where a dominant religious group does not dictate over the less dominant group.
Religious difference is used as a trick to awake Islamic nationalism in Pakistan.
In India we don't perceive anything political or civil with a religious point of view.
It is all the generation gap. As far as I have seen Indians, being a resident of India and belonging to a highly orthodox Hindu Brahman family, I have seen things change.
When I was a child my parents never used to permit people of other religions in our house. Today my Muslim and Christian friends visit me at my home and my parents are pretty comfortable with it and the better part is many a times we even have dinner together.
It is Pakistan that is still lost in the past.
I'l give you facts.
Hindus in Pakistan are so fed up of the atrocities against them that they are asking India to accept them, at least as refugees, because refugees in India are more comfortable than Non-Muslim citizens of Pakistan. Many of the Muslim immigrants in Pakistan, belonging to 1947 immigration are still not granted citizenship and are devoid of civil facilities. Afghan Muslims are not treated without humanity.
Religion a tread mark used for Islamic nationalism as I mentioned before and to seek support from terrorists who aim at jihad.
If you want to stress on Ideological and religious differences, then you will have to consider China, Israel, Japan, Iran, UAE, Saudi Arabia, USA, UK, Russia, Sri Lanka, African nations etc. all of which are more than friendly with India, and all of them are either religiously different or Ideologically different. then why Pakistan?
India and Pakistan share almost everything in common,
Federal republic state, social welfare state, geological locations, large youth population, massive Islamic population, diverse cultures, talented youth, military potentials, International commitments etc etc etc.
Pakistan adopted an anti-Indian agenda and remained with it for too long, but India only developed enough defenses and advanced in other sectors leaving Pakistan in its shadows.
Now this is the real difference between India and Pakistan.
When I was a child my parents never used to permit people of other religions in our house. Today my Muslim and Christian friends visit me at my home and my parents are pretty comfortable with it and the better part is many a times we even have dinner together.
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I am glad to read this...
The creation of Pakistan was Britain's mistake. Instead of a haven for south Asia's muslims it has turned out to be a haven for South Asia's muslim radical jihadists. Hence, with 60 odd nukes, an alphabet soup of muslim terrorist/jihadist groups, unstable government and a fanatically radicalized, islamicized civilian society, Pakistan is doomed and anyone who comes in their way is doomed!!
The best thing Britain can do in co-operation with the international community is to dismantle Pakistan asa country and defang its nukes. Pakistan is basically Punjabistan. Pakistan's military is dominated by sunni Punjabis who have sponsored genocide after genocide against anyone not like them viz., Baluchis, Bengalis, Pashtoons, Kashmiris, Hindus, Buddhists , Sindhis, Christians, Sufis, Ahmadiyas, ismaelis, Buddhists, sikhs, Zoroastrians, etc.
If the Nurenburg crimes of genocide were to be applied against a country in particular, Pakistan would be the grand prize winner!!
Pakistan's military is dominated by sunni Punjabis who have sponsored genocide after genocide against anyone not like them viz., Baluchis, Bengalis, Pashtoons, Kashmiris, Hindus, Buddhists , Sindhis, Christians, Sufis, Ahmadiyas, ismaelis, Buddhists, sikhs, Zoroastrians, etc.
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Do you think Indian Hindu is better than Pakistan's islamist in genocide other religions !!
I think Nurenburg crimes will be very busy dealing with all religions genocide including of course the Vatican !!
http://www.economist.com/comment/1170230#comment-1170230
I would disagree with this article. The real problem is the Pakistan's government does not have a coherent policy toward the Taliban and Al Qaeda. The real villain here has been the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence Agency (ISI). They have been up to no good, running from the sheltering of Osama Bin Laden, to instigating the attacks in Mumbai, to embarking on development of hydrogen bombs.
After NATO leaves Afghanistan, serious consideration should be given to building an alliance with India and forming a nuclear deterrent toward Pakistan. The Pakistani people are ultimately responsible for their ISI.
Of the seven countries of the Indian sub-continent [including the Maldives ] Pakistan is the only country that had sought to 'punch above its weight'! She has played a high stakes game in foreign relations with the sole objective of checking India, and, possibly to push her back!!
This psychology of Pakistan, the world now understands well - at last.
Created through a bogus theory of "Muslims and Hindus are 'two nations" - a theory smashed by the Bangladesh movement - nurtured through liberal aid from the USA for over 60 years, aided into nuclear weapon status by China and, to a degree, by the indifference of the USA, Pakistan today is well and truly an 'international migraine'.
Pakistan is much more than a problem that is India's own.
China is a late entrant into this complex Pakistani psyche. She is going to find that all her heavy investment in Pakistan will leave a bitter taste in her mouth - a taste that the USA is now feeling after spending billions of dollars on Pakistan.
May I add that none of the weapons the USA supplied Pakistan since 1951 was ever used against 'the spread of communism'. Up to the Kargil War, they were all used against India!!
It remains to be seen if the sophisticated radar, fighter planes and night-fighting hi-tech military equipment that the USA continues to gift to Pakistan for 'fighting terrorism in the Af-Pak region' would ever be exhausted for that ostensible purpose.
India knows that most of that equipment would be deployed against her army and air force, as in the past.
USA is not making it easy for India to defend herself. With China adding to this burden, India has to spend more than 3% of her GDP on quality equipment and a quality army and air force.
Pakistan is a seriously negative factor in the sub-continent. The sad fact is, for all that, she has gained very little. Some would say, she is losing heavily as a nation, despite liberal income from allies such as the USA, China and Saudi Arabia.
Flame Z in my previous posts in these columns I have pointed out that a lot of comments in these columns from the Indian subcontinent are long on emotion but short on objectivity, your response to my comments just prove my point. In my posts I try to be as objective and rational as i can be in putting across my point of view. If you have anything objective in response to the bench marking I have done i.e. the number of casualties in 1971 Pakistani civil war and Indian war, vs the Vietnam conflict, or for e.g. the Korean war which lasted for nearly 4 years with over a million combatants facing each other which resulted in an estimated 1.5 to 3 million deaths, I look forward to reading your response.
With respect to your comment "it has been verified by the UN and its the highest number of prisoners taken in a war" I would request a copy of the relevant UN report, since if there is such a report it is based on incorrect information. Do not take my word for it, Google the numbers of prisoners of war during world war I & II, and see how far of the mark your comment is. Just as an couple of examples, when the French surrendered to Germany in 1940, there were 1.8 Million French POWs, when the Afrika corps surrendered there were 250,000 POWS in North Africa.
With respect to your comment "And there is no rule made by nature that Muslims of Pakistan will not rape anyone. And about Bengali women being bed-mates, we are not talking about prostitution, its rape" I agree with your comments. I am not disputing that there were rapes (unfortunately these crimes happen everywhere with or without wars), all I am pointing out is that their incidence in this case is greatly exaggerated. Let me be clear that in no way am i condoning rape in any way or any circumstances. Nor, to be clear am I in any way casting any aspersions on Bengali women. My comment reproduced below is a historic fact and based on human character "in war time (cultural attitudes and religion also play a large role) soldiers are generally able to find willing companions if for no other reason than the fact that such companionship offers security, food and shelter, and most men prefer willing bedmates not forced ones".
Come on 'Student of history', we are talking of the third world
Let me be specific:97000 war prisoners is the highest of any wars after the 2nd world war and the highest in the 3rd world.
I don't think there was any emotional content in my post, it was more of sarcastic in nature. I think you must read it again with a clear mind and you will understand the meaning and intention.
Anyway I only wanted to show you that the method you made use of for calculating the causalities and rapes was not adequate and the figures you gave like the 45000 Pakistani personals and 20000 firing men also was not the true data.
I agree to your WILLING BET-MATES theory but that can be possible for somewhere around 100 or even 300 women but certainly not in the case of the proposed 300,000 raped women if any chance it were that large number.
As I have mentioned in my earlier post, I have no solid info on the number of women raped. So Please excuse me, I wouldn't like to comment anything on it.
I see two or three positive developments coming out of Pakistan, currently.
Premier Gilani's clear message to the Pak. army and to the people of Pakistan - "Don't seek changes through armed, forceful take overs."
Imran Khan's 'Tsunami' rally brought out 'the silent majority' [who are not always 'religious nuts'], 'middle Pakistan', if you like.
Pakistan and USA are seeking a new 'working relationship', less antagonistic, less emotionally 'ga ga', less acrimonious.
But Pakistan should not become too dependent upon Beijing. That would cost them dear in the longer term - dearer than what it has cost them to have had such close relations with the USA.
My small appeal to Pakistanis:
"Democracy is an unglamorous, slightly chaotic, very irritating, form of governance. But, it avoids extremes and gradually brings about genuine equality of opportunities to all sections of society. It is a great moderating force where every citizen can enjoy the maximum freedom possible.
Therefore, be patient with it, persist with it.
Get your army to stay in the barracks or in their posts guarding your borders."
'Student of History'
On statistics, we rely on media reports. As I said in my reply to 'LandofIndus', the figures of 3 million killed and another for Bengali women raped, the source quoted was the Government of B'desh.
But I agree with your underlying message that we need to exercise caution in accepting or rejecting in total such statistics.
Even if the actual figures fall short of these figures we know of, what damaged Pakistan's case was the crackdown after a democratic general election, wherein Mujibur Rehaman, should have become the Premier of united Pakistan.
The other deeper cause was the ethnic divide between Bengalis and the West Pakistanis.
Nor did it help that a significant portion of the B'deshi refugees were Hindus. Their women also figured prominently as rape victims. India is not given to raising a storm over the sufferings of overseas Hindus.
Therefore, in this case too, the Hindu refugees were only a minor reason for armed intervention. But the Indian soldiers in East Pakistan may have fought harder because of what they had seen on the ground.
An apology from an Anglo? In writing? I always thought that the English language was flexible enough to disguise anything. Sir Humphrey would have been disappointed.
With respect to some of the posts here in relation to the 1971 Pakistan civil war and subsequent India- Pakistan war a few facts.
1. The approximate composition of the Prisoners of war taken by the Indian army was 45,000 Pakistan Army, Air force, and Navy personnel of all arms, 11,000 West Pakistan Police and paramilitary Personnel, and 40,000 were West Pakistani Civilian Personnel their wives and children.
2. It is claimed that the Pakistan Army killed 3 Million Bengalis. To put it into perspective, direct US involvement in Vietnam commenced in 1962, with large scale infusion of combat troops in 1965, and ended in 1973, with South Vietnam’s capital Saigon (today Ho Chi Minh city) falling in 1975. At it’s peak the US armed forces had deployed over 550,000 personnel (This number does not include personnel contributed by US Allies like Australia, Korea, countries in South East Asia, with whose inclusion the number easily goes over 600,000 personnel – Nor does it include South Vietnamese army which alone had some 250,000 troops Killed in the conflict) in Vietnam, with hundreds (if not thousands) of aircraft, helicopter Gunship, artillery and tanks, long range bombers, naval flotillas on the high seas and Vietnam’s rivers and waterways. The Vietnamese casualties from this conflict are estimated at some 2-4 Million dead, in North and South Vietnam.
3. When measured against the death toll in Vietnam, for a conflict that lasted 12 years with the kind of resources and firepower that the USA deployed it is not possible that the Pakistani Armed Forces, with the extremely limited resources that they had compared with the US behemoth, were able to kill/massacre the same number of people over a 8 months (March 1971 to mid December 1971) period.
4. Given the number of Pakistan armed forces personnel deployed in East Pakistan, there were not more then 17-25,000 fighting men in the force. Using a number of 20,000 fighting men and 3,000,000 Bengali dead works out to every fighting man on average killing some 19 Bengalis every month, or 180,000 people being killed every month. This would work out to 5% of the population of the country being killed at the time.
5. When after its independence (1973-74) the Bengali Government sought to compensate Bengali victims, the Bangladeshi parliament was informed that some 72,000 claims were received with numerous cases of fraudulent claims, and some 50,000 claims were awarded. These numbers do not include the west Pakistani civilians who were killed in that conflict.
6. The Pakistan army raped 300,000 Bengali women. Rape unfortunately does exist, but even in war and the most adverse circumstances is generally not widespread. Why? because in war time (cultural attitudes and religion also play a large role) soldiers are generally able to find willing companions if for no other reason than the fact that such companionship offers security, food and shelter, and most men prefer willing bedmates not forced ones. This fact can also be verified from the attitude of the US army in Vietnam, and the local women who kept them company. In the case of East Pakistan the additional taboo of cultural conservatism and religious beliefs of the Pakistani soldiers as well as the Bengalis would have played a role in reducing such acts. It is worth noting that despite all the Taliban related violence in Pakistan and Afghanistan, rape has not been deployed as a weapon of war by either the Taliban or their opponents.
7. If 300,000 women were raped, that would amount to on average every single West Pakistani Military personnel (some 55-60,000) raping 6 women each on average, or one person would have raped a woman every 1.3 months. If one assumes that 10% of military personnel indulged in this crime it works out to 6,000 men raping 300,000 women an average of 50 rapes per person, or 6.25 rapes a month! Assuming 5% of all military personnel took part in such crimes that rises to 100 rapes per person, 13 rapes every month per person. Using this hypothesis we would assume that persons are so hardened that they are repeat offenders, not to mention the fact that in professional armies rape is an offence that is punishable by court martial and possible execution. Looking at the above statistics shows the unrealistic nature of such claims. These numbers have been magnified at least 200-300 times if not more.
8. In the early 1970’s the Bangladeshi government launched a program to identify rape victims, compensate them and take care of any children born out of these rapes. The official line was that these women were heroines of the liberation struggle. There were approximately 100 such victims identified. Even allowing for cultural conservatism which would mean that a lot of people might not want to step forward the disconnect between the claim and what falls out is huge.
'Student of History'. You have not concentrated on your academics well enough.
You are too much into statics.
Well how many men are killed or how many women were raped or who can win a war on whom really doesn't depend on the weapons included.
You have spoken so about Vietnamese war, but do you know how won it.
Despite all the powers executed USA and its Allies lost the war.
Pakistani personal may have or may not have raped 300,000 women I'm not going to comment on it as i'm not sufficiently informed about it, but killing of 3 million is proved. 97000 Pakistani personals captured cannot be a rumor, as it has been verified by the UN and its the highest number of prisoners taken in a war. If it was 45000 then it cannot be on the top, it should have been below Mao revolution, but its on the top.
You gave estimates that assuming that there were 20,000 firing men would take 180,000 people to be killed every month i.e. one Pakistani had to kill 19 Bengali every day. Now who gave you the info that the number of firing men was 20,000. It could have been thrice more.
OK let me use your formula in another place. 10 million Bangladeshis were chased out by the Pakistani military and they took refuge in India and it is acknowledged by Pakistan itself.
So according to you taken 20,000 firing men to chase out 10,000,000 people in 8 months means that every Pakistani should have chased 63 people everyday form Bangladesh to India. He he he:) What a joke.
OK I'l give you my statistics:
There were 90000 military personal and it would take 33 bullets from each in 8 long months to kill 3 million. It is absolutely possible.
There were in total 97000 personals taken prisoners and 9000 killed by the Indian army so just 3 women raped by each person in 8 long months. Again absolutely possible.
And there is no rule made by nature that Muslims of Pakistan will not rape anyone. And about Bengali women being bed-mates, we are not talking about prostitution, its rape.
Think discuss and bring real facts before you post anything.