FOR no particular reason, every time I sit down with an economist today, the Stern Report on global warming comes up. I am not speaking to environmental economists, nor do I bring the topic up to anyone. Yet each time, it somehow worms its way into the conversation.
Those following the conversation at home will perhaps remember that the Stern report was undertaken at the behest of the British government, in an attempt to find out how much global warming was going to cost in the future, and what we should be prepared to do about it now. It became controversial among economists because of Sir Nicholas Stern's decision to choose a pure time discount rate of zero for the future benefits of climate change abatement. In everyday language, that means that when weighing costs and benefits accruing to those of us alive now, against the costs and benefits to future generations, we get no "extra credit" for being alive closer to this year. A 1% decrease in income today is treated as the exact equivalent of a 1% decrease in income 200 years from today. William Nordhaus has been among the chief critics of this approach.
I am still chewing over the full import of the moral intuition that people born 100 years from now have just as much right to, say, live in Bangladesh, as those born today. But as one does, when one is chatting with economists, I became curious about what this moral intuition would mean if we actually applied it. The most obvious example is abortion. If we cannot discount the interests of the fetus simply because it is not yet with us as a person, then how can one morally justify legal abortion as a coherent national policy? In the United States, at least, the argument generally centres around whether or not the fetus is a "person"—an argument which only makes sense, given the time horizon, with a very aggressive use of time preference. I found myself becoming very curious whether economists who support Sir Nicholas's pure time discount rate of near zero, such as econ bloggers John Quiggin and Brad DeLong, identify themselves as pro-choice or pro-life, and whether they had considered the Stern Report from this angle.
Then I began exploring the permutations that might logically reconcile favouring legal abortion, on the one hand, and perfect concern for the welfare of unnamed descendants 2,000 years hence. Is it that the unnamed descendants are not yet fetuses? Does non-fetushood convey protections? But surely, barring scientific advance, they will eventually be fetuses, before they are people.
Is it that they aren't specific, but only general? I cannot build any moral logic does not dictate that any preference should run the other way, in favour of creatures with a high genetic likelihood of existing in a particular form. Besides, we know that environment strongly influences who we will eventually be, so we don't know exactly what person the fetus will become. Therefore, I mote, the future he or she should be able to collect any considerations owed to the amorphous future over the specific.
{I think I need an entirely new tense to have this discussion.}
There are, of course, other arguments in favour of legalised abortion. One could say, for example, that women have no obligation to support a fetus just because it happens to be helplessly dependant—but this would seem to undercut any moral support for the social safety net and the income tax. Saying that bodies are different might make some sense, but personally, I take my body to work with me every day, after which the various levels of American government will take forty percent of the labour of my fingers, at gunpoint if necessary.
I find it hard to construct a really compelling argument in favour of abortion which does not rest in some way on discounting the utility of the fetus-as-future-person. Though I have not myself been pregnant, I observe that my friends and relatives appear to prefer the horrors of pregnancy to not being alive. Thus, comparing straight utility, the fetus should win in a cost-benefit analysis.
Update: Social discount rate has been clarified to pure time discount rate.



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The AEA appears to inspire contests to decide who is the wonk and who the wanker. Please score 'r world' as the wonk in 'vs. Stern.'Comment originally posted on January 9, 2007 12:01 AM
Odd argument. So what is the NPV of a sperm or egg (or given enough advances in cloning, skin cells)? It seems one thing to allow for a possibility (e.g., life in 100 to 200 years ought to be a viable option for humanity regardless of our discount rate of the value of that life) and quite another to insist upon it (we needn't insist on a worldwide population of 60 billion in 2200 merely because we have enough sperm and eggs to pull it off and, after all, those zygotes all had compelling NPV. http://rwrld.blogspot.com/ Comment originally posted on January 8, 2007 4:42 PM
So am I reading between the lines correctly in saying that the solution to global warming is to abort the future population? If we are to be oppressed by them, it seems wise to order a unilateral pre-emptive strike. Comment originally posted on January 8, 2007 4:18 PM
The abortion argument fails to consider the mother, who has rights NOW. While it may certainly give us pause to propose that we kill a fetus which would acquire rights in the future, it is quite another thing to propose that we conscript an unwilling individual to serve as its life support system. One might as easily propose that anyone with two kidneys or lungs be legally compelled to donate one to the first suitable recipient. Comment originally posted on January 8, 2007 2:06 PM
jim lebeau wrote: > Toby Douglass seems to be sure that the one being aborted > would have no value to the future generations that are sure > to be there. I guess I should be O.K. with that. We may not > need another Einstein or Tesla or Watson or Crick. The 0% discount, as I understand it (and I'm no economist, so I may well have misunderstood), means that economic costs and benefits are not reduced because they occur in the future. So if global warming requires us today to spend 1% GDP to solve, that cost is identical to 1% GDP in fifty years time. This matters because as time goes by, global warming will cost more and more to fix; so if we considered 10% GDP in fifty years time to be equivelent to 1% GDP now, because we apply a discount rate, then we would defer the decision. Of course, in fifty years time, the people around then are rather shafted by our decision. The original post revolved around this question; "If we cannot discount the interests of the fetus simply because it is not yet with us as a person, then how can one morally justify legal abortion as a coherent national policy?" In other words, if we do not apply a social discount rate, then we are implicity stating that future lives, as yet unlived, are equal in value to those lives in existance today. The implication for abortion is that if we on one hand are stating that future lives are considered equal with current lives, surely to be consistent this means that abortion, which is the termination of a future life, is unethical? The answer I proposed was that individual choice determines whether or not we reproduce, so the future value of the fetus is irrelevant; but we can be sure many people will reproduce, so we know there will be a future full of people, and we must consider their lives. You've said to this, that; "Toby Douglass seems to be sure that the one being aborted would have no value to the future generations that are sure to be there." Where I've argued it is a personal choice to reproduce, and so the value of the fetus to future generations may be a factor the parents wish to consider but is not, I would say, an ethical obligation upon them. As such, the value of the fetus, large or small, is irrelevant. Comment originally posted on January 8, 2007 11:53 AM
I suspect that the whole discount argument is flawed at its root. The problem is that the exact identity of the future human beings depends in a strictly precise manner on all the history that brings to their conception. Hence different policies about global warming will generate different sets of men and women, not the same set in different conditions. This means that we cannot damage future human beings, but only pop them in or out of existence. Any scenario regarding future generations should be hence judged on aestethic grounds, not on moral ones.Comment originally posted on January 8, 2007 9:36 AM
An interminable debate with no resolution is often an indication that the wrong questions are being asked. The discounting debate is a good example. Before you can even begin to think about applying a discount rate you must first have a cardinal quantity (a �value�) which can be manipulated arithmetically (as opposed to, say, ordinal quantities which are used in some branches of economics). It is at this point that cost-benefit analysis is philosophically unfounded: the notion of assigning cardinal values to various outcomes may seem commonsense, but when applied to the actions of sovereign entities such as governments it is in fact nonsense. To understand why this is so we must first recognize that we are dealing with rights. (As Ronald Coase put it � . . . what are traded on the market are not, as is often supposed by economists, physical entities but the rights to perform certain actions.�) The market value of any bundle of rights is determined by the marginal seller and the marginal buyer (or a hypothetical marginal seller and buyer). Now, for both the marginal seller and the marginal buyer, the indifference point between the bundle and an amount of cash (i.e. the �value� they place on it) will depend on their initial cash balances. Richer buyers are prepared to pay more to buy while rich seller require more to sell. The opposite is true for poorer buyers and sellers. In other words, cost-benefit analysis is biased towards the rich. However, one of the capabilities of sovereign governments � as a matter of empirical fact � is that they can alter the initial cash states of buyers and sellers through their taxing and spending powers, and thus in principle the values of all bundles of rights. Any proposal being subjected to cost-benefit analysis may (in principle) be "stapled" to a taxing and spending measure that would enrich those who support it (at the expense of those who do not) so that the supporters may (in principle) bid up the value of the outcome. Of course, their opponents may put forward a counter-proposal that does exactly the opposite. The result is a theoretical bidding war in which the taxes and subsidies proposed by each side rise indefinitely. A cost-benefit analysis which involves a sovereign government cannot therefore determine an unambiguous result. While all this may seem far-fetched, governments do it all the time when they assign arbitrary values to �externalities� in order to make their cost-benefit analyses arrive at the result previously determined by political considerations. Die-hard supporters of cost-benefit analysis will argue that the theoretical adjustment of initial cash balances should be forbidden. Unfortunately, that suggestion is itself nothing more than a proposal (one which would, incidentally, benefit the present rich at the expense of the present poor). Before accepting it we would need to validate it by cost-benefit analysis � something we have just shown to be impossible. With this conceptual framework the mathematical manipulations of the Stern Report are easy to understand. If it has been decided for political reasons to prevent global warming, then the cost-benefit analysis must be designed to attribute higher values to the costs of global warming. One way of doing this is to apply a zero discount rate. What the Stern Report has done, in effect, is to arbitrarily increase the cash balances of hypothetical future buyers so that they can bid up the price of a stable future climate. If, on the other hand, it has been decided not to do anything about global warming then the cost-benefit analysis must be designed to attribute lower values to the future costs. A higher discount rate will achieve this. Comment originally posted on January 8, 2007 8:38 AM
Strange as it may seem to Economist writers, there are phenomena in the world that aren't particularly illuminated by applying economic concepts. Attitudes towards abortion have nothing at all to do with discounting rates. Would you feel any different (pro or anti) about an abortion happening tomorrow versus one to happen in twenty years time? * * * On the Stern report, probably the most important point about discounting is whether we expect future generations to have a much higher standard of living than the present. Are we making sacrifices for our descendents when they will in any case be far better off than ourselves? But in any case, it's not the discounting that is decisive as far as I can see. It's factoring in the risks of extreme outcomes, that would not just reduce living standards but devastate humanity.Comment originally posted on January 8, 2007 5:14 AM
SIR - In response to post 11 by Mike Martin. The wonderful thing about a free market is that the individuals that believe that having a slow growing species of tree in existence is worth in more then the 0.8% rate that it brings in as fine furniture can band together and purchase the plantation to enjoy them in their natural state. The plantation owner will be happy sell the trees as he values them less highly then the particular group of individuals. That is to say that the group of individuals assigns a higher value to keeping the trees than they can get elsewhere, and is clearly higher then the 1.1% from the 10-year bond as it is an option available to them. With this situation the discount rate of 0.8% is not used but whatever rate the group that purchased them assumed. If they do not have the funds available they are free to convince the public of the value of the trees and solicit donations to their cause or create additional funds (by working, investment or trading � options that are always available to create capital). Through this process capital is allocated in an efficient manner. The only place this gets tricky is in the case when the plantation owner has a monopoly on this species of timber. Then it is fair through anit-trust laws to have some oversight to prevent overcharging, but not to force charging less then the plantation owner could have achieved without the monopoly status (which, given the low rate of return for the fine furniture was not staggering). The alternative option to this scenario is that group of individuals decides that an easier course of action is to force legislation upon the owner of the trees to prevent any use of them whatsoever. In this case the group enjoys the benefit that they desired while the owner of trees bears the costs (by the effective destruction of his capital). Or if they wanted to have the same results without working through the ruling government they could rob a bank to get the funds they need to purchase the plantation. Given the number of species in existence it may be that not enough capital is available to protect all of them, so some method of allocating the resources will have be devised to decide which are valued highly enough to protect (and in what quantity) and which have to be let go. How would it be decided? What system would be better or more fair then the free market? If people as a whole want to protect as many as possible then they can! They just have to bear the costs. Comment originally posted on January 8, 2007 4:46 AM
Suppose there is a slow-growing species of tree whose timber is particularly prized by makers of fine furniture. If a plantation of this timber increases in value by 0.8% p.a. in real terms while the 10-year bond rate is 1.1%, it is economically rational to immediately fell every last stick of the stuff, wiping the species out. Yet many of us would feel that there is something wrong with that line of reasoning - wouldn't we? Comment originally posted on January 7, 2007 10:57 PM
"our self-determination means we can abort a fetus, because it harms no-one (the fetus not yet being conscious and sentient), but we can also know that large numbers of people will choose - within their self-determination - to have children and so we can be quite sure there will be a future Bangladesh full of Bangladeshis." That may be true of Bangladesh but it is not true of Russia, Japan or most European countries, whose fertility rate is below that required to maintain existing population levels. If there is a possibility that the human race could become extinct, what should the discount rate be? What are the pros and cons of leaving behind us a pristine world, as opposed to a disgusting mess?Comment originally posted on January 7, 2007 10:50 PM
To restate the bloggers's question: why is there a different discount rate for the value of a life 0.5 years away from being born (ie, no penalties for destruction, ie, a discount rate of infinity) and one 100 years from being born (penalties in the form of global climate change opprobirum and fees, setting the Stern discount rate to 0%)? The anti-abortion stance has turned away from talking about the zero value of a fetus (it's always been a tough sell) to one saying that the woman's choice over her pregnancy is worth more than the current value of the fetus. American law currently holds that the later overtakes the former at the end of the second trimester (unless there is non-optional health risks to the woman herself). Given that last legal bit, we can even do the math to figure out the discount rate for a fetus. A woman's choice today (w) at 6 months pregnancy is equal to the future value of a child (call it f) discounted by three months at a certain rate (call it r). Hence, r = (f/w)^4 -1 We can then calculate the present value of a child born 100 years from today by plugging it back into the NPV equation: NPV = (w/f)^400 The Stern report should be using this number instead of 1 when computing current value of future humans. Except for a couple problems: (a) f might be computable, but how does one compute w? (b) different cultures have different abortion standards. If a culture believes life begins at conception the above formula gets changed to this: NPV= (w/f)^133, which is a higher number (c) If we are allowing for women's choices, what of the woman who wants to have a child 100 years from now? What is the NPV of her lack of choice of procreating in Bangladesh?Comment originally posted on January 7, 2007 10:33 PM
Sir, There are many possible ways to justify considering the interests of future people while not objecting to the termination of pre-people. As another comment correctly pointed out this is a distinction we must already make to avoid the ridiculous conclusion that it is mandatory to have as much unprotected sex as possible (lest one deny life to a potential person). The standard response is that one only gains rights and responsibilities once one is actually born. Thus we care about the future welfare of those who will be born but not those who will be aborted. I personally don't find this position compelling. Instead I adopt a purely utilitarian view of the situation. What is problematic is not death per see but suffering. Ending a fetuses life is not wrong because it neither induces as much grief as killing a person nor creates the fear in people that they will be killed themselves. The standard slippery slope arguments explain why it would be bad to expand the right to kill children beyond birth.Comment originally posted on January 7, 2007 5:04 PM
The issue of how to conduct CBA with variable populations is a somewhat vexed one, but as I understand it, the standard approach on this sort of thing (see e.g. the work of Blackorby, Bossert and Donaldson) is to treat non-existent individuals (which I�ll assume, arguendo, to include foetuses) as having no interest in existing. Consequently, if we�re comparing a state of the world x in which a foetus is aborted, and y, in which it is not, the foetus� utility is irrelevant, regardless of one�s attitude to discounting the utility of future lives. (I'm simplifying things somewhat here, but the point isn't affected.) On the other had, if we are comparing two states of the world y and z where neither involves aborting the foetus, then the foetus will have interests once it is alive, and one�s attitude to inherent discounting can affect which we prefer. The upshot of this is that there�s no necessary link between one�s attitude to discounting on the one hand, and one�s attitude to abortion on the other (at least unless one believes, as many do, that the foetus is a person.)Comment originally posted on January 7, 2007 4:43 PM
I am pretty much a newbie at this economics, but Cristopher Brown seems to be saying thta it is O.K. for me as an individual to bury all my empty aluminum cans in my backyard, but that it is not O.K. for Americans as a group to do so because that would screw up the status quo of the planets climate. Toby Douglass seems to be sure that the one being aborted would have no value to the future generations that are sure to be there. I guess I should be O.K. with that. We may not need another Einstein or Tesla or Watson or Crick. I am working hard to understand this.Comment originally posted on January 7, 2007 4:20 PM
SIR - I am extremely pleased to see a discussion of the Stern Reports controversial use of a zero �social discount rate�. I believe it was grossly incorrect and done to provide talking points and big numbers for political proponents of regulation of emissions by twisting the financial mathematics that the general population does not understand enough to dispute. I do not necessarily believe that this was done with specific malicious intent but it is very troubling. The primary reasoning that a larger discount rate needs to be used is not, as the Stern Report suggests, that future populations are worth less then current ones, but because we have alternatives on which to spend money instead of abating climate change. For instance, the 1% of world GDP (a tremendous amount of funds) that he suggests the abatement would cost could be spent on education, capital investment (roads, communication infrastructure), scientific research, etc � or leaving it in the hands of individuals to invest. Each would yield a different rate of return. As he suggests that not allocating the funds for global warming will cost 5-20% of world GDP, the cost of not allocating the same funds towards education will cost some portion of future GDP maybe more or less than the 5-20%. A reasonably discount factor allows us to compare options and see what the realistic cost/benefit of and action is. By using the smallest discount factor that he could justify he grossly misrepresented the cost vs. benefit. As the costs of climate change regulation will largely be borne by the most productive components of the global economy (energy consumers) I think that a more aggressive than normal discount factor should be used, but I may be biased. Comment originally posted on January 7, 2007 4:05 PM
The jump from "good for humanity at large" to "good for individuals" poses a considerable problem. It's easy to say that action should be taken on behalf of the future population of the planet, because I think it's a fair request that each generation not screw up the status quo of the planet's climate. The generalizing logic used in that statement can't be easily applied to a situation involving a handful of people, such as an abortion or contraception decision.Comment originally posted on January 7, 2007 2:56 AM
I think it's fair to question the use of a zero social discount rate. However, I think your analogy to abortion is specious. Personhood is a binary thing under the Western social contract. There are no half or nine-tenths persons. One is either a party to the social contract, with full rights, or one is not. Applying discounting to binary things is really only effective with large samples, where the laws of binomial distribution can be used. We only need to push your analogy a little further... which is that a paired sperm and egg must have rights too, as potential persons discounted for time and likelihood of conception. That's going to be true for any finite value you place on the discounting rate. This leads, as Monty Python put it, to "Every Sperm is Sacred; Every Sperm is Great". There's lots of other examples where discounting naively on an individual basis yields ridiculous results. I can tell you the present value of the future salaries of the current generation of four-year-olds with some accuracy, but I cannot borrow against my own four-year-old's salary, nor does he get any proportion of a vote. No, I'm afraid if you're going to criticise the Stern report's use of a 0% social discount rate, you're going to need to supply counterexamples based on large samples. I dare say that shouldn't be TOO hard -- 0% seems a radical proposal -- but let's stick with large numbers. Comment originally posted on January 7, 2007 2:04 AM