WHENEVER the German Bundestag holds a vote on the latest euro rescue, two seemingly contradictory narratives emerge. A lopsided victory for the measure is virtually guaranteed. That is because the main opposition parties are more in favour of solidarity with shaky euro countries than are the three governing parties, Angela Merkel's Christian Democratic Union (CDU), its Bavarian sibling, the Christian Social Union (CSU), and the liberal Free Democratic Party (FDP). At the same time, threats of defection from the government camp and harangues from the opposition, accusing Mrs Merkel of mishandling the whole crisis, make every vote a melodrama.
And so it was on February 27th, when the Bundestag voted by 496 votes to 90 (with five abstentions) to approve a €130 billion ($175 billion) financial package to avert a disorderly debt default by Greece. But the victory was not as decisive as it looked. For the first time in such a vote, the government fell short of a “chancellor majority”, an absolute majority of Bundestag seats composed of coalition votes alone. The three parties cast 304 votes in favour, seven short of the mark. The government reached the less ambitious target of passing the measure without needing opposition votes. Still, the result puts a slight dent in Mrs Merkel's prestige and suggests that resistance to euro bail-outs is growing.
Hans-Peter Friedrich, the CSU interior minister, stirred things up before the vote by suggesting that Greece would be better off leaving the euro. Many lesser coalition politicians agree with him (as do the voters, more than 60% of whom oppose pouring more money into Greece). But this is not what Mrs Merkel wanted to hear. “No one can guess what the consequences would be of a disorderly default for all of us,” she told the Bundestag.
The opposition slammed Mrs Merkel for offering the Greeks too little help while demanding ruinous austerity. The package is unlikely to chop Greece's debt from 160% of GDP to 120% as promised, warned the former finance minister Peer Steinbrück from the Social Democratic Party. Greece will need a third rescue, he predicted.
The drama will be repeated. The Bundestag must soon vote on the European Stability Mechanism, the EU's permanent bail-out fund. The German government has already agreed to this in principle (indeed, Mrs Merkel said that it is willing to speed up its capital contributions to bring the fund up to full strength faster than planned). But at the G20 meeting in Mexico over the weekend Germany came under pressure to agree to an expansion of the €500 billion “firewall”, perhaps by combining the temporary European Financial Stability Facility with the permanent fund. That will be discussed at this week's European summit.
The last thing Mrs Merkel wants is to return to the Bundestag speakers' podium to tell MPs that Germany must risk still more taxpayers' money to secure the euro's survival. Yet she did not flatly rule it out. “The government sees at the moment no need for a debate” about increasing the bail-out fund, she said. Her hope is that Greece's debt restructuring will reassure the still-nervous financial markets, making a top-up of the rescue funds unnecessary. Otherwise, the Bundestag may administer more than a mild slap next time
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Driveways and households the length and breadth of the piigs are adorned with vws, Opels, Audi’s and Bosch machines primarily because the people recognise quality workmanship put in by the hardworking German workers, so let there be no denying that to begin with. However I would like to know if the German media would so racistly and belligerently continue to label such peoples ‘lazy’ if those very same so called “pigs” collectively stopped buying German products from cars, tractors and coffee machine's right down to sweets and confectionary. I imagine the pariah label might soon fall away. Who knows, such action may even pave the way for indigenous start up companies to be formed, find their feet and gain some favour. A country like Ireland for example is not going to fall any further if Germans are not buying its drink, meat, dairy products and pharmaceuticals. The UK is the primary destination for such exports and new markets could quickly be opened in any event. The whole master slave mentality between Germany and the piigs is wearing a bit thin. Germany continues to label and lecture whilst failing to recognize the slaves insatiable appetite for her products. It’s a double edged sword and they happily ignore the other side of the blade.
The German multinational Siemens has a proven track-record of bribing and funneling kickbacks to the people in foreign countries that have the right to sign off on massive state contracts in which Siemens is a bidder.
Such was the case in Greece for many, many years.
For instance, the former transport minister in a socialist (Pasok) government led by thoroughly German-educated ex-PM Costas Simitis, was proven to have received 500,00 DM by Siemens, referred to subsequently as a "campaign contribution".
The one-time minister, an elite socialist named Tassos Mantelis, has been mostly immune from prosecution, only coming under money laundering charges.
Siemens got off with a 'slap on the hand'. Did German authorities know about this practice, in Greece and elsewhere?
Another Simitis crony, a close aide called Theodoros Tsoukatos, admitted to receiving one million DM from Siemens as a "campaign contribution" to the then ruling socialists, again the one-time Baathist Pasok.
Pasok said it never received the cash, the Tsoukatos character said he handed it over.
Will the holier-than-thou German authorities care to investigate??
The German shipyards in Kiel were proven to have paid bribes to sell three subs to Greece, one of which the Greek navy says lists dangerously when submerging.
The socialist chap that was defence minister at the time in Greece, another German education byproduct called Akis Tsohatzopoulos, now resides in a million-euro small mansion directly opposite the Athens Acropolis.
Will German authorities or Bavarian prosecutors investigate?
Enough of your hypocrisy already, Germans ruined Europe twice in the past century, they must not allowed a leading role again, no matter how many BMWs and espesso machines they make.
I wonder what would happen if south European countries like Spain and Italy stopped consuming "Made in Germany" products. I'm definitively closer to the german way of doing things than to the spanish ones, but I'm also a little bit done with Germany's feeling of superiority. Most of the greek debt was issued by german banks.
"Most of the greek debt was issued by german banks." Are you saying that Nazi Germans shoved money into the Greek pockets by force and poor Greeks were in no position to say no? Do you realize how retarded this argument sounds?
And what's "superior" about Germans trying to make sure you don't come back to beg for more of their hard-earned money? That's what the so called "austerity" is all about, which I think should be called "return to common sense". But next to mindless excess, decency really does look like austerity.
With so much denial and lack of personal responsibility I'm not surprised some people have let themselves go so far in debt.
"I wonder what would happen if south European countries like Spain and Italy stopped consuming "Made in Germany" products."
Then Spanish and Italian people would 'enjoy' the only regimes in the Western world which forced their citizen to consume third class junk instead of quality goods . . . Where this leads to was experienced by the communist leaders of the past or as in Kim Jong-un's empire, where only the Supreme Leader is allowed to enjoy the consumption of products "Made in Germany" or can use German technology.
"Most of the greek debt was issued by german banks."? - Dimwit!
- Most of the greek debt was issued by Greek banks!
-1st: I'm not greek.
-2nd: I did not use the word "Nazi" nor any equivalent term, and I suggest you think twice before doing it again.
-3rd: Thinking that everybody in the north of Europe works hard, while everybody in the south "takes it easy" is false (feel free to use 'retarded' if you feel more comfortable with this word).
-4th: "common sense" is equally distributed around the world. Some have it, others don't.
But all this said, I still believe that in critical moments such as the current ones, the HOWs are as important as the WHYs. And if you travel around Europe, you'll see some places where people is close to having nothing to loose. And this is the perfect scenario for someone to point to an external cause.
It happened in the past, and it may well happen now again. All you need is someone to stand up saying "we are an independent country, if you want your money, come for it". Do you see what a road-end scenario (for all) that would be?
As much as I disagreed with some of the phrasing used by "JelloB", still I could empathize with some of his ideas and definitively I share his description of "common sense" vs "mindless excess".
But your post ... I can't find one single concept that is worth replying.
Germany's Economy Minister Philip Roesler today in a public statement:
«I sometimes get the impression that ... the elite in Greece don't want to forego their privileges.”
Diplomatically he might go out on a limb again with such a statement. But at least someone is finally saying the truth publically and doesn't mince matters. I guess that won't be left unanswered. What a great show! LOL!!
True, but what the 'troika' considers privileges are people getting 500 euros a month or highly qualified people who have a private contract that gave them tenure in exchange for a lower salary 20 years ago and the troika demanding voiding it by law. Instead, the troika makes no demands on the salaries of the elite, such as the ministers, MPs or people who make 4M/year because they are CEOs of say the bank of Greece where pension funds are required by LAW to deposit their money. Instead these people lecture the rest about tying salary to productivity and the need for sacrifices which will result in increasing the debt and no end in sight.
In Financial Times today...
While German leaders such as the head of the Bundeskbank pretend to be a virgin prostitutes:
"ECB policies highlights fears of potential costs for Germany from its role as the eurozone’s biggest creditor nation"
The actual reality was:
"ECB injected an extra €529.5bn into the eurozone financial system, taking the total supplied to banks under the three-year loan programme beyond €1tn.
The broader collateral rules used by the ECB helped to draw smaller banks into the scheme, with take up from some 800 banks edging ahead of demand in December, when 523 banks borrowed €489bn.
More than half of the institutions that borrowed were German, according to people familiar with the auction."
The rear-view mirror economist: "More than half of the institutions that borrowed were German, according to people familiar with the auction."
Why shouldn't they? The idea behind the finical injection is to free liquidity for the real economy.
However, the number of institutions doesn't reflect the amount borrowed ... and you know that. Why imply something here which doesn't hold ground in the light of the day?
For example, Italy's Intesa Sanpaolo alone borrowed €24 billion from the E.C.B., according to Reuters, almost as much as all “small” German banks combined!
Small and mini banks, called Sparkassen and Raiffeisenbanken, make up the third pillar of the German banking system. They are mainly the lenders to Germany's booming Mittelstand (SMBs). For the economy to be able to borrow affordably was one of the main reasons for the ECB's most recent "quasi-QE".
That was what central bank officials wanted, because community lenders are a crucial source of credit for smaller businesses and consumers.
These small (including German) banks have been less affected by the debt crisis, thus didn’t borrow in the first rounds of the ECB’s financial injections. This time they were especially invited and hence accounted for most of the increase in the total number of banks taking advantage of ECB's largesse . . . but, of course, not for most of the increase in borrowed money.
@TomAlex: “Germany is borrowing at 1% and lending (e.g. to Greece) at 5%”.
Germany is borrowing for 1%??? – NO!
Germany’s 10-year bunds yield 1.86% (yesterday) and 2.06% (last month). These are "Germany's" borrowing costs at the moment.
What an economic illiterate might call "Germany is borrowing for 1%" refers actually to ALL European banks, most of all it refers to the borrowing countries' own banks!
Greek, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish and Irish banks would borrow from the ECB at 1% for years and earn 5% on their Greek, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish or Irish three-year paper, for example.
But this is not the point. Any money lent to Greece is most likely lost forever. This is why Greece can't borrow from the markets at reasonable rates.
The German lenders just wrote down 70% (!!!) of their Greek sovereign debt holdings. All together, private creditors were being asked to take a 53.5% loss on their Greek bonds.
These are hardly any prospects to waste good money away for 1% interest. Any sound risk calculation for uncollateralized debt must be reflected in the charged interest - if money is given at all. As an Economist reader, you should know these basic principles of lending and banking. 5% interest is not even one tenth of the risk surcharge which would reflect Greece's true payback capabilities!
It is correct that the money goes –at least partly- to pay back (not bail out) the lending banks. But it seems that you deliberately overlook that Greece’s own banks are BY FAR the biggest lenders to the Greek government, thus the money goes foremost to pay back Greece’s lending banks
. . . And these Greek banks didn’t offer better conditions or charge less interest than e.g. the German banks did in the past. And: Why should foreign banks waste away their money on a risky borrower for below-par interest rates, when Greece’s own banks didn’t do this either?
The foolishly repeated claim that “German banks benefited the most from Greece’s woes” led to German lenders now staying totally away from lending to Greece, thus rather increasing Greece’s borrowing woes and not lowering it.
The perverted claim of many Greek politicians that their own homemade follies, fed by their own fraud and corruption, are “all Germany’s fault” leads additionally to a general unwillingness among German taxpayers to transfer any more money southward.
Generally, the Greeks' current finger-pointing attitude doesn’t make potential lenders more inclined to throw their good money after bad.
Fact is: Among most foreign creditors Greece is seen as a "failed democracy". Every Eurocent given will end up in the Greek jungle of corruption; this is at least the common perception. So, I agree; it would be the best for Greece as a country to unilaterally default and return to the Drachma currency.
But this is a step, suggested many times by German politicians, which Greece has to take all alone. Nobody in this world can make this decision for them; nobody can take this from Greek voters’ shoulders.
Wake up people! Germany is a tough negotiator and it is not negotiating with tiny unimportant Greece. Rather it has negotiated with Britain to fully integrate into the German Euro currency union. In exchange the European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.
As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".
In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the
troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like
fotograf 20% shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.
Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.
Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.
By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with
"z" and "w" with "v".
During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl.
Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi TU
understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.
Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.
ziz artikl ez veri funi :D haha
It amazes me how hostile people are toward Germany. German is so mean and miserly, but they are the only ones who can actually afford to provide aid. I am starting to hope that Germany just walks away. It could manage better on its own, than with a host of ungrateful parasites.
I agree with you (I am not German). Also because the interventions by the German government look quite equilibrated in asking a change in the tendency to accumulate public debts and making available sensible sums for help. It’s a fact however that too many German politicians are too often giving interviews which design scenarios totally incoherent with the real decisions by the government. They produce big echoes in newspapers, in Germany and abroad.
This is nonsense... Let's see what happens if it left Greece and other nations that are in trouble to their own devices. Suddenly those countries which bailed out their banks (which in turn own billions to French and German banks, because of their reckless lending) will then decide to not pay back these debts owed by their own banks. This will send a massive ripple through the system, whether everyone is still using euro or not. Essentially you bail out these countries or you bail out French and German banks. One or the other.
Added to that, see how hard it becomes for Germany to sell their exports to the rest of Europe with a super-strong D-mark. Germany's export boom has been carried by the ability of eurozone nations to buy their products cheaply. If you need many Greek Drachmas, British pounds or Spainish pesetas to buy one D-mark then people will stop buying from Germany. You say Germany is the only one that can provide aid, but this is because it profited so much from the euro.
I'm not blaming Germany, but everyone profited in one way or another (Germany - easier to export, Greece, etc. - cheap credit) from the euro. Now that things have gone bad in the finance sector everyone has to chip in and not blame everyone around them.
The Germans invented the printing press; I don't think they need Greek "help" to devalue their currency. It could use the money to bail out its own banks or provide government benefits to its own people.
Well put! This a realistic comment!
What sense does it make to export (sell) to people who can't pay? Does your supermarket give you $200 at the entrance, so that you buy from there (for $100)?
Those eurozone countries asking Germany for "cash in return" buy only 8.7 percent of Germany's total exports - while 27 percent of their exports go to Germany.
Exactly: "everyone profited in one way or another"
That's why European taxpayers owe Greece absolutely nothing! It's not other countries' fault that Greece is corrupt, incompetent and made a mess out of its chances which it got with much cheaper loans, much lower inflation, all the EU funds and much easier trade conditions. They really messed up!
Moreover, it is factual wrong that Germans profit from a devalued Euro. Haven't you noticed that Germans strongly support a strong and stable currency? Some exporting companies profit from a weak currency (to a limited extent: ther component imports become more expensive), but not the overall economy. A weak Euro leads to more expensive imports (e.g. ressources such as petrol, gas etc.) and lower social returns for the citizens, which more than offset the additional gains of additional exports of some companies.
If your logic was right, wouldn't the Germans try to let the ECB print like hell so that all exports became even cheaper on the world markets? The influence of the price of a currency on exports is very limited, there are more decicive success factors.
Well put! We all know that economics is not your strength.
"This a realistic comment" = "Give me more of your money."
You don't know what the word shame means, do you? How is it going with your "few hundred Euros" that you don't even count any longer and which you used to give your physicians in an envelope? I had a fit of laughter when you admitted that in another comment, corrupt beggar.
Cheers for the comments!
@heart of flint: Probably not Greece no. But you are ignoring the rest of the EU. Germany is very strong and it it leaves the Euro it would have to rebalance itself and not be so strong. Like I said, you won't use Spanish pesetas either if the D-mark is too expensive, etc., etc. Germany can't exist by itself.
@la.výritý: Yes, no sense at all! I agree, but this is what happened; hence we are in a financial mess. Germany appears to want two things: (1) The rest of the EU to be mini-Germanys and be fiscally prudent and (2) to keeps its own exports strong. It is hard to do both in an a union like this. Also, you must understand that I do not mean just the German government when I said Germany. I perhaps should have been more clear when I say this. German banks lent recklessly and the debtor countries then use this to purchase German products (financial and otherwise), which in return improves the German economy, so the banks profit etc., etc.
@mashed potatoes: Sad to say this, but I think your reasoning is tempered in Germany by fear of hyperinflation. Fear of the past. It is an irrational fear to completely rule out any sort of quantitative easing no matter the situation. But this is what Germany does because of the hyperinflation pains it endured before.
Greek-German here....can you guess which side of my ethnicity I support???
The EU ought to rename itself "GERMAN ECONOMIC EMPIRE" with that name going across the map of continental Europe, and on the maps Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Portugal should have in parentheses next to their name: (German Commonwealth).
Also we are NOT mean and miserly. Maybe if we didn't have to pick up the tab...
Greek-German here....can you guess which side of my ethnicity I support???
The EU ought to rename itself "GERMAN ECONOMIC EMPIRE" with that name going across the map of continental Europe, and on the maps Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Portugal should have in parentheses next to their name: (German Commonwealth).
Also we are NOT mean and miserly. Maybe if we didn't have to pick up the tab...
"Haven't you noticed that Germans strongly support a strong and stable currency?"
Why, is there anyone in the world who doesn't support that? lol
Someone has ".gr" in his name and you come up with all that??? All he did was say he agrees to a comment, and you end up calling him a corrupt beggar... Not that you're too ignorant to see Greeks don't want loans from Germany and that Merkel and the Greek politicians are forcing them to swallow it. I take it you're not German? Because you would be more educated on this issue.
sorry for the reposts/
Dear Sir George, you have a nice name. Are you a "Sir"? With all due respect: I wrote that to haki.gr because he admitted exactly that in an earlier post. And it shoudn't surprise you: 3/4 of all Greek independent businesses (feelancers etc.) have announced an annual income below the "existence minimum." That includes physicians. Funny, isn't it?
"Why, is there anyone in the world who doesn't support that? lol"
I appreciate that you prefer that as well. But you would be surprised: There are many who don't.
pgc4VwkEVx, you have a strange perception.
"Germany can't exist by itself." Why not? Every country can. Why can the Swedes, the Danish and all other nations? Germany did perfectly well with its DM or before the EU was so integrated. A union is better in times of globalization, but not at all costs.
"The rest of the EU to be mini-Germanys and be fiscally prudent"
Thank you for the compliment. You seem to associate fiscal prudence with Germany. Unfortunatelly I have to tell you that you don't become German just because you don't spend more money than you earn. I don't become Greek just because I eat Feta and burn my money (Thank God!). Ant btw., German "reckless" banks are writing off 75% of their Greek debts, they are paying for the mistake of wrongly trusting Greece which was officially declared to be a "save" investment until recently. Buying government bonds is not really the same as speculating.
"Sad to say this, but I think your reasoning is tempered in Germany by fear of hyperinflation."
Sad to say this, but it seems you read to many gossip magazines which write fancy stories to gain attraction. Ask an average German on the street if he knows what "hyper inflation" is. Has it ever come to your mind that a strong, stable currency is economically simply better than an inflationary soft currency which looses 5% of its value annualy? Why do you think Southern European countries went over bodies to be able to join the Euro in the first place in the 90s?
Oh, and by the way: Every nation is free to leave your so called "GERMAN ECONOMIC EMPIRE" since it was also joined voluntarily in the first place. There's no need to force Germans to change mutually agree rules at their expense. There is also no need to be so jealous just because Germans are successful at the moment. It was called "the sick man of Europe" just 5 years ago and didn't behave like a cry-baby at this time, asking for other people's money. And I don't think that Germany is the only succesful economy. It is rather Greece which is an exception and a few other nations with limited trouble.
I think you're missing my point. I believe German economic dominance is a good thing. I mean why not? I'm either for a Europe where everyone is on their own like before, or a properly managed union. There are never any equals in any union, and if there is going to be a leader who will it be? I'd pick the Swiss or Scandinavians yet they don't want an EU and nor are they capable of huge industries. That leaves Germany. Italy, Greece, Spain, and Portugal have very inefficient management of their economies.
I honestly can't see an EU where Germany isn't at the top or somewhere near it.
Ha, thanks, I didn't think myself strange!
Err, because it can't?! Em, trade maybe?! I hate quoting wikipedia but I will because it is easy! "Exports account for more than one-third of national output". That is why it cannot exist by itself. Germany will take a massive whack to it's economy if it cannot trade as it does in the euro. Fine, yes, Germany can leave and try to exist like it did in the past; trade takes a massive dip but Germany survives. Nobody wants to survive though, everyone wants to profit (as Germany has since joining the euro!). That is why Germany isn't leaving the euro and is pouring billions into Greece, that is why it will continue to do so (you may disagree but watch this space!).
No problem. It is fiscally prudent, amazingly so! I couldn't agree with you more. We all won't become German (thank god! What a boring world!) just by not spending money (we'd need more debtor countries to buy all of our products for a start!), but that IS what is happening. Look at the Fiscal Compact, it is trying to make every country like Germany. And like you say, it is lunacy! And yeah, German banks were reckless, so now they take a massive loss. Boo-hoo... That's how capitalism works.
Don't say "average German" as a reason for economic policy not existing. The average British person doesn't understand "quantitative easing" either but, you know, the Bank of England is going at that hell for leather anyway! Ireland and Belgium aren't Southern EU countries and their economies went for a nose-dive too, mostly from credit fueled by Frano/German banks. Also, calling the NY times a gossip magazine is a bit harsh... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/02/world/europe/haunted-by-20s-hyperinfla...
In your first reply to my posts you mention Greece being corrupt etc., but this isn't just about Greece. It will be amazing if Ireland doesn't need another bailout, Portugal too. Italy is still on the brink, Spain behind it. Belgium's economy is in the toilet too. France lost it's credit rating and will lose more most probably. These aren't all corrupt. It isn't as simple as "We spend wisely, we clever; you corrupt, you bad."
Look, we can go on all day like this. I think Greece was reckless, Irish banks were reckless, German banks were reckless and Freddie Mac was reckless. Now we all pay, either by austerity or by bailing out others. The euro doesn't work, I think we both agree. I think we both agree too that bailouts don't work either in the long run, though maybe we agree for different reasons.
So you have a choice. Germany (+ other creditor countries) go back to being semi-rich with their own currencies and compete with Brazil, India China alone (good luck!) and debtor countries try to deflate and make money by selling products and holidays cheap to Germany etc. like before (again, good luck!), or we all bite the bullet and realise that there has to be give and take; i.e. Eurobonds or transfer/economic union.
Your post is too long to answer every point. The Euro doesn't work perfectly, that's correct. But believe me, Germany won't defend it at all costs. The most dangerous thing about breaking it up is the speed of change, not the breaking up itself. Business couldn't adopt fast enough. Otherwise, Germany would do very well with a smaller EZ and stronger and more appreciated currency like e.g. the Scandinavians have it (Sweden with a appreciated crone: 7.5% trade surplus in 2011). I recommend to read in some economics books why even 5% inflation are counter-productive and why an appreciated currency makes a nation richer than some export advantages due to a devalued currency.
The NYT writes a lot of nonsense like every other magazine. The fear of "hyperinflation" is not the reason for the ECB's policy. The fiscal pact is a copy of a similar Swiss law, Poland has something similar as well. It was strongly supported by each nation's ECB banker. It's not originally German, but it is a good thing. It is not lunacy.
Yah, fair enough. These things tend to spiral out of control when points are made!
Sorry, I don't and can't believe you. Precisely because I see the opposite happening... Germany is putting in money into something that won't work (bailouts) and continues to do so. That smells of a country that desperately wants something to work. The opposition parties in the Bundestag appear to support this policy, however ridiculous it may be. Whatever your reasoning about why Germany supports it (speed in your case), it is clear that it is doing a crazy amount to save the euro and will continue to do so. I think they do this because they benefit massively from the euro. Obviously there we can agree to disagree!
I was only trying to point out that you said I'm referring to "gossip magazines". I wasn't. The Economist also wrote in the past about hyperinflation fears. Do you consider yourself to be commenting in a "gossip magazine"?! :)
No, TE is not a gossip magazine. But it lives from selling.
Of course the Euro is beneficial for Germany. All I'm telling you is that there'll be a certain point when Germans will stop defending it. It's a cost/benefit calculation, and political cost have to be included. And Germans prefer a strong and stable currency despite some export advantages of a devalued currency... that has nothing to do with "hyperinflation".
The bailouts work pretty well in Portugal and in Ireland. Both are fully on track. If Greece fails, it does so because it isn't able to implement required structural reforms, to use available EU funds worth 15 bn, to take the technical help it is offered since several years from different countries and to collect taxes of its rich citizens because it has an underqualified public administration and politicians with counter-productive intrests. Why do you think it didn't take the offer of Switzerland to tax Greek citizens' bank accounts worth 200bn € already 2 years ago? Or to build up a business development bank with German help earlier?
Oh, and btw, here is a statement which will surprise you:
In a few years from now, the fiscal pact will enable the best Keynesian economics ever seen in Europe. I give you a hint why: Check out how the pact works, what a "structural deficit" is, which exceptions exist and don't forget that Keynes' idea includes the reduction of deficits in "good times." The latter did seldomly happen due to politicians who wanna be reelected every 4 or 5 years..
Sorry I did meant that Germans are mean or miserly, but that is a common insinuation. I think the rest of Europe should be grateful for German thrift and generosity.
Merkozy's dilemma is that the Franco-German banks had in the first place fed the debt-ridden drug addiction habits to PIGS, and now have to fork out even more money in case the now sickening PIGS die before paying off the debt.
If Germany wants to protect its banks from bad foreign debt, I think it would be better off just bailing out its banks. Greece is obviously not going to pay off its debt, and Germany is going to give more than one Euro to Greece for every Euro it's banks get back. Maybe they should give Portugal a chance, but Greece is unwilling to act responsibly and unable to sustain its current system without subsidies.
I think it is worth keeping in mind that (a) the debt addiction was made possible by certain dysfunctional forms of derivatives, so that a financial transaction tax on just such derivatives would have prevented the problem from blowing up, and (b) the debt addiction appears to have started because the populations of certain countries have not yet developed an implicit social contract in which the wealthier accept that taxes must be paid in return for sensibly calibrated government services.
On point (b) Yes, but, shouldn't the German/French banks not have noticed this inherent bad behaviour in these countries and then not lent to them?! OK, maybe not Greece as there had been misrepresentation in the countries finance books, but for Ireland, Portugal, etc. the writing was on the wall if the banks cared to look.
If I was a bank Frankfurt, I'd really start to get worried when Anglo Irish bank asks for yet another loan for yet another property development in yet another relatively unpopulated part of Ireland. Yes OK, Anglo is being stupid, but why would I be stupid enough to lend to them?! Shouldn't these successful banks not have some sort of risk assessment procedure which includes all factors like the behaviour of the bank AND the country it is located in?
Well, the 'shoulds' you propose seem to me, whose economics includes a few mildly philosophical ideas, as apparently does yours also, pgc4VwkEVx, eminently rational.
In this context, a gentleman by the name of Leo Strine, who is the Chancellor of the top commercial court in the US State of Delaware County, where a large number of multinational corporations are registered, points out that 'the system' as it now presents itself to profit-making entities 'expects' their decision-makers to think and act strictly selfishly.
If that were thoroughly so, then we would, of course, be considering corporate decision-makers to be nothing more than amoral computerized indulgers in greed (ACIGs). I personally think that, once a culture has been allowed to descend to that level, then its population is pretty close to being doomed; and fortunately a case can be made that that is what indeed would be so if the decision-makers were entirely ACIGs, with the consequence that it is possible, by strenuous efforts in blogs such as these, for those who can think like human beings to effect a turnabout in the behaviour of bosses of ACIGs, although only after a great effort.
For me the practical bottom line is that those of us who have not lost our abilities to think and feel like human beings, rather than only react as ACIGs, must insist on strong penalties for those who refuse to raise their principles above that of an ACIG. In particular, we must design and be willing to insist upon a regulatory structure that heavily penalizes those personally responsible for allowing a corporate culture in which decision-makers routinely take crass ACIG advantage of, for example, the implicit support that government and central bank officials provide commercial and investment banks. And both Leo Strine and I -- among many others, of course -- also feel that the imposition of an FTT would make it easier for corporate CEOs to require non-ACIG behaviour from ACIG-inclined people.
In my case, I argue -- at the following URL -- for a 'smart FTT' with a design roughly such as described at:
http://www.authentixcoaches.com/ACdsFCF-1.html
Sorry mate but that link is disgustingly difficult to read!
All I was pointing out is that people say "the debtor countries borrowed recklessly and were corrupt", while not wanting to slap the bankers who lent to such people in the first place. Foolish people were rife in this situation, both the creditors and debtors...
Please... The German taxpayer now has up to 300 bn in the fire for Greece. Greece owes German banks about 10% of that.
We are well beyond the point where it would be far cheaper to just shove all the money German banks loaned the Greek down the German banks throats and add a handsome ROI for them on top, too.
The commentor "Hohan" wrote:
"...you can't change a culture overnight", meaning "the" culture - the Greek one.
Immediately another commentor - "Liet Kynes", gives us a convincing example of Greek culture, starting his reply to someone's post with:
"...are you mentally healthy or you need to go to a psychiatric clinic?"
Like the governance, like the debating attitude.
Rescue missions - the third, or the twenty third - wouldn't save the Greek financial derriere, that's for sure!
Debt at 160% of GDP?! Close the country and give it away to Macedonia, to be ran as a new region... something like East Germany unification with the West.
Of course, Macedonians may refuse the gift, they're not that stupid. Well, how about Erdogan? The Ottomans had commanded Greece quite successfully for ages.
Just don't throw good money after the bad any more.
Had Albert been alive today, he'd have rephrased his quote to:
"Two things are infinite: the universe and Reluctant Polluter's stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Tell me your nationality so that I can test how much obscenity the Economist will tolerate!
Your nationality is not at any doubt at all - this Greek unfounded hutzpa, to be on the first names terms with Einstein himself, is unmistakeable.
Greeks are usually interested not so much of someone's nationality, but ethnicity and religion. But sure, I can answer your question alright - I'm a New Zealander.
What does it have to do with the sound advice not to throw good money after the bad?
Or to find some... eh... political entity ready to sacrifice itself and help out Greeks who are not capable of self-governing?
The Macedonian economy is in peril too. What's your point? Also Germany was successful too after WW2 when Americans and Britains were controlling it, so should they give it back?
With every new rescue package the Germans do more and more oppose the bail-outs.
Decisions were made and the parliament was aloud to approve it afterwards.
So the pressure on the MBs is increasing with every new buck that is spent for bail-out.
And for more and more Germans these bail-outs turn out to be endless. And the amount, for which Germany should be liable, shall be increased by every new day. So it seems that there is no end of money spending. I would also like others to pay my check.
I am sorry for Greece since German money does not bail-out Greece but the banks (worldwide) and its assets. This fact the Germans recognize and on the other hand the European population is summoned to be subject of cuttings........ In the end the people, including the Greeks, suffer whereas the banks and the rich doing well.
There is simply no democratic control over all these decisions because the most were made
outside the parliament.
"I would also like others to pay my check."
Actually the USA did many times for Germany.
Here is just one example.
The US provided $12 billion in humanitarian aid to Europe after WW2. This is around $100 billion in today's money to pay for the humanitarian mess caused by Germany's murderous rampage through Europe.
See link below. And this was in the context of a US GDP of $258 billion in 1945.
Of course you had no problem with the USA paying for Germany's bills.
US humanitarian aid from 1945 to 1948 $12 billion
Marshall plan 1948 $13 billion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
"The United Nations also launched a series of humanitarian and relief efforts almost WHOLLY FUNDED by the United States.
Already in 1943, the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration (UNRRA) was founded to provide relief to areas liberated from Germany. UNRRA provided billions of dollars of rehabilitation aid, and helped about 8 million refugees
This $13 billion was in the context of a U.S. GDP of $258 billion in 1948, and was on top of $12 billion in American aid to Europe between the end of the war and the start of the Marshall plan"
See below.
"Of course you had no problem with the USA paying for Germany's bills."
No, since I was still pending birth.
Don't want to be ungrateful, but 13bn out of 258bn is about 5% over 4 years, so "just" 1.25% per year. EU countries have been taking on liabilities at a much quicker rate during the crisis - Germany may be liable for about 5%-10% of GDP at the moment, and if you include Target2, it's (very roughly) 40% of GDP! And this is not happening because of a disastrous war and in the midst of poverty, but because of the unwillingness of certain rich countries to reform themselves.
Also, "In the 1953 Debt agreement the amount of Marshall plan aid that Germany was to repay was reduced to less than 1 billion USD" out of less than 1.5bn in total aid to Germany, meaning Germany repaid about 2/3 of this aid. Greece made already abundantly clear that this is not going to happen.
Furthermore:
"In the case of Germany there also were 16 billion marks of debts from the 1920s which had defaulted in the 1930s, but which Germany decided to repay TO RESTORE ITS REPUTATION. This money was owed to government and PRIVATE BANKS in the U.S., France and Britain." [my emphasis]
Surpise, it worked!
In Addition, Greece has already received about EUR 130bn in inflation-adjusted aid over the last decades, and that in the context of about 10 million people! Where did this money go? No ones knows, but apparently not into infrastructure investment.
Finally, to conclude:
And USA killed the Indians... when are they going to return all the territory... and when compensate the blacks.... blablabla... we can all play this game endlessly, but it won't get us anywhere. The atrocities of the past have nothing to do with Greece's unwillingness to reform itself. More cash for Greece will only stuff the pockets of those who already have.
Or, consider this:
Greece has so far received the above-mentioned 130bn Euro in aid over three decades. It will have reiceived another over 240bn in EU and IMF credits between 2010-2012, and another 100bn in debt reduction from private creditors. That makes 230bn in "gifts" and more than 240bn credits, or 100% of GDP in gifts and another more than 100% in loans.
Seriously, how much money does this country need before it can stand on its own legs??
The Eurozone is giving loans to Greece which have to be paid back with interest.
You seem to be unable to tell the difference between humanitarian aid and loans.
Also the USA had nothing to do with Germany's murderous rampage through Europe which created the humanitarian mess.
So why the hell should it pay for it?
US killed the Indians?
And did Germany pay $100 billion in humanitarian aid to the "Indians" ?
I fail to ssee the connection other than an uneducated ignorant remark about a complex issue of human migration that has occurred throughout human history.
"In the 1953 Debt agreement the amount of Marshall plan aid that Germany was to repay was reduced to less than 1 billion USD" out of less than 1.5bn in total aid to Germany, meaning Germany repaid about 2/3 of this aid."
Actually No.
The Marshall plan was a combination of grants and loans. Only the loans had to be paid back. Germany paid back only 15% of the Marshall plan money it received.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
"The proportion of Marshall plan loans versus Marshall plan grants was roughly 15% loans to 85% grants for both the UK and France."
"In the 1953 Debt agreement the amount of Marshall plan aid that Germany was to repay was reduced to less than 1 billion USD This made the proportion of loans versus grants to Germany similar to that of France and the UK"
"The Marshall plan consisted of aid both in the form of grants and in the form of loans.
The Marshall Plan money was in the form of grants that did not have to be repaid."
"how much money does this country need before it can stand on its own legs??"
We all have our burdens to carry.
Germany has been a burden to the USA for close to 100 years since WW1. See Der Speigel link below.
So it is good you learn how it feels like to bear burdens and pay for the sins of others.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,769703,00.html
"Germany was responsible for what were the biggest national bankruptcies in recent history. It is only thanks to the United States, which sacrificed vast amounts of money after both World War I and World War II, that Germany is financially stable today and holds the status of Europe's headmaster."
Emma, what are you talking about? Did I say the USA should have paid? My point is rather that the scale of the Marshall plan was not comparable to what is going on today in Europe. US sacrificed 1,25% of GDP per year, which is nice enough, but not close to the risks taken over by some EU countries now. Marshall plan aid also largely was in the form of loans. The money given away by the US as grants actually was not that much. Greece, however, won't be able to repay its loans, and I suspect you know that as well.
As far as my remark about atrocities past is concerned, my point was that these discussion are not helpful to solve today's questions. Sorry if that was not obvious enough.
Ok, your Wikipedia quotes do seem to contradict my statement about the loan/grant ratio. Although one of its sources (72) says: "By the end of 1953 the bank had received several instalments totalling around EUR 1.89 billion (DM 3.7 billion), which it could then begin lending to the German economy.... In 1953 the Marshall Plan came to an end. However, the London Debt Agreement stipulated that Germany need repay only just under USD 1 billion of the funds it had received." One USD was worth about 4,20 Mark in 1953.
http://www.kfw.de/kfw/en/KfW_Group/About_KfW/Identity/History/Themenschw...
Not sure what to make of that... maybe you find better data.
So, somehow we all have to suffer because we are sinful? Are you making a religious statement?
It does not make sense to try to support a failed black hole economy indefinitely with cash. It's stupid. Stupid things done in the past don't make it smart.
And finally, one more point to illustrate why your Marshall plan comparison is flawed:
"Die Hilfsgelder machten weniger als drei Prozent des Nationaleinkommens der 16 unterstützten Länder aus"
"The aids amounted to less than 3% of the GDP of the 16 supported countries."
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshallplan#Marshallplan_in_Deutschland_heute
The Marshall plan was a kick-start aid of 3% of GDP. Greece's GDP is around EUR 230bn. It will have received EUR 240bn in loans by the end of 2014 and a debt reduction of EUR 100bn on top of about EUR 130bn received in the decades before in direct air. The EU is dumping vast amounts of cash into a black hole. It's not comparable to the 3% of the Marshall plan.
I don't wish to take anything away from the magnanimity of the post-war Truman/Marshall government. But I do wish to remind people that (a) the US private sector had, for many years before and many years after, made out like bandits in arms sales to US, UK, and allied militaries, and (b) in the case of the Palestine Mandate, the US government was not in the least responsive to British pleas that, faced with war debts to the US, Britain could not afford the peacekeeping needed in Palestine. The lack of US responsivity of that era is at least in part accountable for the parlous states of armed hostility around the State of Israel ever since.
I also understand that American Jews were against settling Holocaust victims in the wide open country of the US, thus making the formation of the country that, arguably, became the focus of so many troubles in and around Israel until the Arab Spring began to refocus ordinary Arabs on real rather than only religious issues.
(I write this here not so much to throw darts at American Jews now long dead, but to make the point that selfish intransigence is an anathema that must be acknowledged even if it springs from one's own tribe. And BTW, my mother was born to an Australian Jewish family, which makes me as Jewish as Netanyahu).
It is not about being religious.
Welcome to the real world where sometimes we have to pay for the mistakes for others.
In the 1990's the Mexican Peso went into a free fall and the USA & Canada put together a bailout package to save the peso even though they didn't share a common currency with Mexico (US $20 billion & Canada $1 billion).
Even though the peso crisis was caused by the incompetent economic policies of the Mexican government, no American or Canadian government official bashed the Mexicans as "spoilt children" to the world's media. The USA has helped a lot of countries without humiliating them and whining about it.
So you are pouring money into a black hole? No big deal. Others have done the same too - many times.
European Jews fled to Israel because of the Holocaust.
And you demand to know why the USA didn't allow them to settle in the USA.
Why should the USA pay for the sins of Germany?
Hello, the USA does not exist for the benefit of Europe,
Israel was created by a British mandate and made viable by the mass migration of European Jews after the holocaust.
The USA had nothing to do with either of these TWO events but is now expected to solve this problem.
It is high time the US stopped paying for the sins of Europeans and hand over all these European created problems onto the Europeans.
Why should the USA pay for the sins of Germany?
Why should anyone? Least of all poor shepherds in Palestine.
You obviously have it in for Europeans. I will leave you with that pain. It's yours. Not mine.
Exactly if the Palestinians are paying for it than it is Europe's fault.
Always expecting the the US to clean up the mess so that Europe does not have to face the consequences of its actions?
Merely pointing out some uncomfortable facts about who is responsible for the origins of the Israeli/Palestinian problem does not mean one has it "in" for the Europeans.
It appears it is you who is "pained" by facts.
I agree and please do not be sorry for Greece. You are correct, the money goes to bail out the banks. And Germany is borrowing at 1% and lending at 5%. And all this is fine; it's a decision to be made by the Germans. Walking away is also fine. What I am saying as a greek is that right now Greece has a primary debt of 5bn. With the new measures, private sector wages get cut, which means a drop in direct and a meltdown in indirect taxes. It also means a meltdown in social security funds and that anyone who can will leave. Furthermore, since the government intervenes now in private contracts(as if their credibility was high to begin with), I really doubt anyone will trust them to invest or work there.
This means that in a few months, we'll be looking at a primary debt of 20, not 5bn and german taxpayers will be even more pissed(except please note that the greek population is massively rejecting the new measures-while the networks show the riots which is the work of a few organized people, not the millions protesting in the streets-.) As far as greek interests goes, I'd much rather default with a 5bn primary deficit than with a 20bn one. As far as our friends and partners go, one should do everything possible to make this as easy as possible. But one has to draw the line at the new measures, because they are the road to disaster for both sides.
Hm, ja, I see. We were in war with Greece. Good answer. And did you find out how much was payed back to the US?
You seem unable to tell the difference between humanitarian aid and loans.
Hint : Humanitarian aid is not paid back.
Ja, it is always the other who.....
Well maybe all the money that is remitted to Greece was a dream. So Europe does not help at all? And America is keen on spending moeney to Europe, isnt it. Well I thought we are not in a post war stadium but you to refer to it. The comparsion is far-fetched, we still live in peace.
It was the US which backed the Soviets and then had to find a way to withstand the Soviet empire.
"The US provided $12 billion in humanitarian aid to Europe after WW2."
Thanks for the bombs! Thanks for the camps.
"This is around $100 billion in today's money to pay for the humanitarian mess caused by Germany's murderous rampage through Europe."
Caused by the 1929 collapse of the US stock market, FOX movietone propaganda for Hitler and a republic wrecked and discredited by war reparations.
I get that Merkel is getting significant pressure from the rest of the EU along with major banks within Germany to support Greece but if Greece's own population is in favor of default and her own people does not want to support this bail-out then why do it? All this is doing it putting a bandaid on a burst artery.
The challenge is even in the event of a default Greece won't change it's course you can't change a culture overnight.
and how did you come up with the idea that Greeks want a default? Did you read it somewhere, did you here it from the mouth of some official of the Greek government? Did you see any polls that the Greeks say they want to default?! Or does the 199-101 voting in the parliament in favor of the bail out package seems to you that we want default?
Please no more speculators...this is getting too graphic.
How about the Greek street?? Who is throwing a Molotov Cocktail
in favor of the "austerity" package. Show me one public demonstration or active show of support for the austerity package ANYWHERE in Greece!
are you serious? are you mentally healthy or you need to go to a psychiatric clinic? Public demonstration in favor of the austerity measures?? What are you talking about dude? Greeks are demonstrating because their income shrunk horizontally by 50% in less than 2 years, they are demonstrating because the political and economic elite is mainly responsible for this (it is obvious now that they are not doing any reforms, the masks have fallen) but the majority of ordinary Greeks have to pay for the 95% while the politicians and the rich for the 5% while the responsibilities are 95% for the corrupt politicians and the economic elite and 5% in the ordinary Greeks....
Demonstration for supporting the austerity package...this is the most surreal thing I have heard for very long time and historically has never I repeat NEVER EVER happened anywhere.
Show me one historical example that the people demonstrated, demanding from their government to give them less...
And stop being brainwashed by the crap they media feed you, everywhere there are more extreme voices in every opinion. And yes there are extremists in Greece as well, but the action of the extremist, the molotov bomb, has far greater impact than the action of the normal protester...and of course it can be used for political reasons a lot easier...
So if you think that Greeks want out because of the molotov that you see in 1 min TV news broadcast you are far too naive and misinformed.
In my submission, Germany seemingly spare no effort to rescue Greece; but the most underhanded scheme may be the long term plan for a full control of Greece and a string of method to salvage Greece might be the first step in Germany's drama of plot.
Oh the evil Germans again. They were good when they forked out hundreds of billions without question but now they are malignant since they show signs or either expecting to get repaid at least in part or simply not willing to throw good money after bad.
And what on earth would Germany do when they have 'full control of Greece'? Even if Merkel becomes the head of greek government, where's the gain? There are no natural ressources to be secured, no strategic position to be taken by the almost non-existent German army, no political decisions to be made except economic ones. At the very best, Germany can hope to recover some of the money lend to Greece.
The very best thing that could happen to Germany is a quick Greek recovery. Thats also the best thing that could happen to Greece. There is no oil, no terrorists, no south chinese sea, no falklands, no temple mount, no minority question, no kashmir border. Get over it.
As German I would like to control a few countries, but none of them is in southern Europe.
Hey, China has produced some rerally good stregists in the past, you are not one of them. :-)
As a spectator, I really worry about the consequence that Germany thrown good money after bad on Greece.
Hypothetically,if China do the same as Germany, we expect to get a control, rather than its natural resources or something like that, on the target country's government to a certain degree, thus reaping some advantages and expanding our influences among Europe.
It is more likely that the motivation of Germany is, righteously, to maintain the stability of the Euro-zone, and such a behavior simultaneously undermines France's status in EU. But based on the divergence between Berlin and its citizens on this salvage action's pros and cons, I really suspect that something is being planed underhandedly.
Maybe I am wrong cause I'm not one of good chinese strategists. :-)
A political behavior is not always target the natural resources, raw materials, anti-terrorists, etc.
This is a game not all about money.
Get over it.:-)
I agree Greece is corrupt. Germany should probably use it as an excuse to impose itself on another European country because we all know Germany is perfect and has never done anything wrong.
haha yeah Germany is the Holy Graal of honesty, discipline and hard working...like the former Minister of Defence that had faked his Phd...
Yes expecting to get repaid is capitalism in its most squalid and imperial form.
Nobody ever claimed that Germany is a perfect place. There are other interesting TE articles in which for example economic weaknesses are discussed. This forum has another topic, hasn't it?
Reacting to criticism by pointing to other people's weaknesses and criticising them instead... that's what little children do in school when the teacher caught them for something.
And as far as I remember it is Greece that asks German tax payers for bailouts, not vice versa. A creditor has the right to controll how his own money is used. Greece can do whatever it likes as long as it uses Greek money.
Yes, pointing out hypocrisy would be considered childish if you are the hypocrite. Germany isn't using Germany's money, it is using the Euro. Germany benefits from the common market, but it doesn't want to pay for the cost of it. Germany should probably get some guys in brown shirts to go to Greece, put everyone in camps, and confiscate their stuff.
Sorry mashed potatoes, I seem to like the same threads as you! :)
You say a creditor has the right to control it's money. It does, but controlling it such that it makes Greece go even further down the path of collapse with massive austerity is a very silly way to manage ones money. One might even say "un-German" ;)
I would rather have a Defense Minister with an undeserved PH.D , than the one we had in Greece who took dozens of millions in bribes and is still enjoying his loot to our expense. He should be hanged for treason.
As hadjinikolaou said, Greece is the country where Lakis is in and Akis is out..
At least Lakis created jobs and fun..
The ECB has suspended the eligibility of Greek bonds for use as collateral following the S&P downgrade:
http://www.ecb.int/press/pr/date/2012/html/pr120228.en.html
PSI has better succeed now, or Greece is going to crash and burn. It'll be sort of funny if after all this Sturm und Drang, the deal gets torpedoed by American hedge funds.
Guys Socrates (yes I am Greek) said that there are many truths that concern one thing,problem etc.
1 Yes Greece is corrupted (both voters and politicians)
2 Does not produce many things although having a vast number of raw materials
3 Greece bought a vast number of arms from Germany (2006-20010 5th in the world in arms importing)
4 Scandals (Siemens a german firm) that affected the voting due to assignment of project of Infrastructure.
I could write till the end of the world............
SO WE ALL HAVE A PART IN THIS DRAMA.....
Guys Socrates (yes I am Greek) said that there are many truths that concern one thing,problem etc.
1 Yes Greece is corrupted (both voters and politicians)
2 Does not produce many things although having a vast number of raw materials
3 Greece bought a vast number of arms from Germany (2006-20010 5th in the world in arms importing)
4 Scandals (Siemens a german firm) that affected the voting due to assignment of project of Infrastructure.
I could write till the end of the world............
SO WE ALL HAVE A PART IN THIS DRAMA.....
You are absolutely right that the Greek system was also exploited by foreigners who were looking for profits. And many people looked away even though they knew that.
But: Demand (not supply) decides deals, no matter if the deals are legal or not. There was obviously demand for bribes. Hence, the infrastructure projects were given to the company which offered the highest bribes (in this case Siemens; if Siemens hand't offered the bribes, the next highest "bid" would got the contract). There was also demand for arms. If German companies had not offered their products, maybe Russion, French or Chinese companies would have got the deal instead. But a deal would have existed anyway. So the demand is the problem.
Moreover, some Siemens managers were punished. Siemens is about to pay for the damage it caused. Will any Greek politicians end up in prison?
1) Yeah but that's why Russian, French and Chinese politicians aren't going in public to denounce Greece. Cause their governments had a part to do with said bribes (talking about the contracts we had with those countries).
I don't know what part German politicians had to play in the Siemens bribes, something tells me that they did have some part to play in it (it would be naive to think they'd let other countries get contracts just because they'd be willing to break the "rules" more than them).
From what I understand your politics are more complex than ours, and sometimes inner government lines and policies can be quite opposite of each other, so maybe even though X opposed the bribes, Y supported them. Who knows.
2) A lot of Greeks feel threatened by Turkey (which is funny cause all of my Turkish friends told me they don't consider a war with Greece possible at all), mostly over sovereign over sea territory, and of course Cyprus. It would help if the EU established a Euro army already to dwell the fears of the people. They feel NATO would choose not to intervene in favor of Greece if something happened, just like with Cyprus. A European army on the other hand would.
Mind you I think it's stupid, we should cut military spending to 2% which is the NATO minimum, and even then, the majority should go to R&D which will help develop the economy, and not on buying FUCKING TANKS for what is basically a naval country. (and the only reason we'd ever stand a chance in a defensive war. But the Greek army is moronic.....nvm)
And don't worry, Greek politicians will probably end up in a place worse than prison at this rate.
My friend when we talk about anethical actions there are not things like demand and suply.Economical crimes are just CRIMES.......
The involvement of politicians in such a scandal would mean the end of their carreer. The German president was just kicked out for much smaller things and it's not even sure that he commited a crime by law, that's under investigation. So I think the risk of intervening in such bribing is too high for them. But it's possible, of course.
But what politicians do is lobbying for the companies which are located in their country! They do that a lot!
My friend, you can call it whatever you like, but it's by definition demand and supply.
You do not have a clue......
Let's say I am a greek MP.. If I am corrupted there is an investigation taking place by other MPs of all parties and there are so many different reports from this investigation as the number of parties.....Nothing ever happens and I wonder.....
There is no demand nor suply just laws that protect the corrupted system......
No, you don't seem to have a clue what demand is. If there wasn't demand for bribes, no bribes would be paid... because there wasn't demand. Bribes can only be paid if there was demand, otherwise it's simply not possible.
but the german banks warranted Greek arms purchases too, while being heavely involved with the National Greek Debt, (not so much the French, who rather invested in local private sectors)
if these weren't german's, most likely they would have been Americans, because of NATO, and we know that NATO serve the american arms manufactors
"Yeah but that's why Russian, French and Chinese politicians aren't going in public to denounce Greece. Cause their governments had a part to do with said bribes (talking about the contracts we had with those countries"
is that your soup of the day?
Yes. You must be an idiot to think military equipment isn't just a huge bargaining chip in the diplomatic area. If it wasn't, we'd never have bought anything from the French (their weapons tend to break down a lot and are hard to maintain)
hubris !
Greece bought Mirage, and they are still working well
(BTW, it wasn't a bargain, but a exchange between "good friends", France supported Greece vetoing Macedonia accessing to NATO, otherwise the planes would have been "american's !)
and sure Rafale is a plane that breaks down, India just ordered them because of their results in Afghanistan and in Libyan war (isn't it funny, that suddenly the mood changed, so will the Emirates, Brazil is reconsidering it's decision and Swizerland too)
you're just brainwashed by the ambiant anglo-saxonsmedias which denigrate anything that is made in France
And if you're Greek yourself, you'd better to know better where are your true friends
I don't know if this is his soup of the day, but your argument is definitely the worst crap I read in this thread today
then it is a compliment from a know it all
BTW, do you like Melons?
You are right....
If there wasn't demand for money laundering,no money laundering would exist.
If there wasn't demand for greed,no greed would exist.
I could write for ages,but there is no demand about it
A number of Greek politicians from both pasok and ND admitted to have taken considerable bribes in the Siemens affair.
But they are not prosecuted as the statute of limitations protects them. The deadline has expired. It is disgraceful that such law exists but there is no chance that MPs will vote a law to abolish their rotten privileges.
There is just one ex Pasok minister who is on the hook but it seems the charaes are being phased out..
Moreover the senior Greek managers of Siemens responsible for paying out the bribes etc have fled to Germany and have not been extradited as one or two of them hold also German passports. i dont remember all the facts precisely but it has been a mockery of justice all over.
Woah - just a minute. That 60% of German voters oppose the bailout is not what I read in the German media. I believe it was 60% of people polled by "Bild", a trashy tabloid that is very popular but also often looked down upon. I wouldn't answer anything The Bild asked me. I think this statement needs qualifications.
You also read (ZDF Politbarometer, Jan 27) that 45% believe that
the Euro group should accept default by Greece, and an equal number (45%) are opposed to that.
What do you mean 60% of the people polled by Bild? The polls are taking place by phone (usually)from private companies (usually) that are polling a statistical number of people that is enough to give robust results...Unless Build has a catalog of Germans that are Build fanatics, and white trash and asks from the polling company to manipulate the statistics, the 60% represents the reality in Germany...
Please - the newspaper is called Bild, not Build.
It's not a newspaper. It's toilet paper on which stories about Ufos or pictures of playmates are printed.
yeah indeed, the first time I made it correct...then I got carried away...
There are probably few people here in Germany who do not acknowledge that Bild played a significant role in forcing Christian Wulff to resign as Bundespräsident.
Thanos Tzimeros, the founder of the party "ReCreate Greece", recently wrote a letter to Merkel. Here is a part of it:
"... to cure a patient suffering from profuse bleeding, no blood should be infused into the patient before the bleeding is stopped. If these scammers, the politicians are not forced to carry out the reforms immediately, all funds will sink into the black hole of corruption no matter how much money was allocated in the first, second, eighth, eighteenth memorandum. Now, two years after the immoral torture of Greek people, there are still 1,800 public enterprises that were established without activity but only to enable politicians to assign people “close to them” to these companies. There are public companies that have not worked since 2004. Their employees just go to work and do nothing. In the period 2007-2010, at the heat of the crisis and bankruptcy, unions received funding to the amount of over 177 million euro through the worker’s organisation without being invoiced. Today's politicians will not change this; they will do nothing different."
Source:
http://grreporter.info/en/there_different_greece_willing_work_create_and...
Excellent piece. Here's another part:
"...investors find it difficult not to pay the high wages, but the fact that they cannot even draw up a business plan. The investor does not know when it will get approved, what bribe he would be asked, how many documents are needed, where they will be delayed."
I don't know how or even if this problem can be realistically solved. But it is clear that more foreign investment money is not the answer.
I disagree: More foreign investment is the answer. But it must be private because private investores can be held liable for their actions, they can fail without causing a social disaster (unlike states) and they distribute scarce ressources more efficiently in general, but especially better than those Greek politicians. The latter are in charge to create a business friendly environment so that private investors are willing to return to Greece... first of all especially Greek private investors who have several hundred billions abroad.
Didn't you read the quote I posted? Private investors in Greece "cannot even draw up a business plan. The investor does not know when it will get approved, what bribe he would be asked, how many documents are needed, where they will be delayed."
FIRST the business friendly environment has to be created, THEN the investments can (and will automatically) follow.
Man, presenting a piece from a person that has never been elected, has never been a politician in the past and made a party now is completely misleading. This person is unknown to me, he is a nobody, you cannot find anything about him in the internet, no bio, no party internet page, nothing at all...this person could be a speculator, someone that is payed by other politicians in order to create political diversions or even from the Germans themselves. I guess you know how politics works, these are common things in the political arena, at least the Greek one the last 100 years. Especially when the person involved in a nobody, a falling star that came out of nowhere to write a letter to Ms Merkel...
He wrote a letter to Merkel, haha this sounds so populistic. How can I write a letter to Merkel? I cannot, I can only if I have the media power to make my letter public... Well he is a nobody, and nobodies don't write letters to prime ministers of other countries...but Media can definitely publish the words of someone and say that this person wrote a letter to Merkel saying these things...
I think this part you posted says nothing at all, it is plain speculation and very dubious for its political goals...but yeah judging from how many times it has been recommended, it seems to work...
I am only citing him. Also, he made plain clear that "The letter to Angela Merkel was actually a letter to the Greek political system and the Greek public opinion." Of course it wasn't addressed to Merkel.
Are you saying that it is not true what he claims???
Look here:
http://www.dimiourgiaxana.gr/intl/index.php/en/speeches-a-articles/195-g...
well yeah, of course it is true what he claims, you know my opinions on that already...but when I say, or some of my friends say that, we make no impact. But if get upgraded into the status of the leader of a political party then the comment has some significance...so only from a political point of view it is tricky to give the credibility point to someone that from one day to the other upgrades himself into the status of a ''political party'' leader....and the opinions of a nobody that is a political leader could be used for many reasons...what if this person for example was saying that the Greeks believe that Germans are secretly Nazis and try to get over the world? This is a hard core lie but if it is presented like the saying of someone that is a political leader, with a link in a forum like the economist for example this will have great impact...people will think that Greeks believe that Germans are Nazis which is by far not the case...
well interesting site...I don't know if it is a satanic coincidence but when I go to the Greek edition and I click in the link which says ''CVs of the members'' I get only error 404...if you know what I mean....in the English edition there is no option for members CVs at all....so I don't know this guy, I cannot see who he is or any other member..and given the critical situation these days in Europe this person could be anyone...Greek, German, Dutch or whatever else....
Greece is already in "Selective Default"!
Standard and Poor's has classified Greek debt as in "selective default" following the deal it made with creditors to reduce its debts.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17187068