INEVITABLY, last week's flap over John Derbyshire, the contributor National Review Online fired for penning a reprehensible column full of racial animus at another magazine, ended up provoking conversations about the use of the term "racism". Quite a number of people draw a distinction between believing (misguidedly) that there are innate disparities in intelligence or behaviour between the races as we conventionally think of them in American society, and believing (malevolently) that these differences should lead to different treatment by government or society. Others, meanwhile, think that this distinction is a transparent, self-serving ruse that allows people motivated by deep-seated racial bias and resentment to excuse their beliefs. Mr Derbyshire's column itself was prompted by the aftermath of the killing of Trayvon Martin, which has led many people to talk about the significance of persistent racism in America, while others have argued that racism is not relevant to that case because neither the killer nor the cops who failed to arrest him are obviously racist. This leads us into discussions of structural racism, where the effects of Florida's "stand your ground" law are racist because of latent assumptions by non-black civilians, police and juries that make blacks more likely to be shot, and their killers to be exonerated. And so on.
Now, when I was comin' up, sonny, in a not entirely lily-white neighbourhood in Washington, DC, we didn't talk much about racism. I mean, we mostly talked about "Star Wars". But when kids did talk about racial issues in the late 1970s, generally in the context of "Roots" or Lando Calrissian or whether the kids from the Catholic school were tougher than us (yes) or whether we would vote for Marion Barry for mayor (whatever that was), we didn't use the word "racism"; we used the word "prejudice". That new kid? He's prejudiced. Hey dorkus, you prejudiced? I'm not prejudiced! Oh yeah, why'd he say you were? Do you think white people are better than black people? Are you prejudiced against me? And so on, through the interminable rituals of legalistic nyah-nyahing, group dominance struggles, and occasional violence that comprise elementary-school playground life. The word had filtered down to us from the national discourse of Carter-era America, and having a basic sense that this was the moral agenda of the day, we employed it in a usually warped fashion as grounds for the confused early stabs at self-regulation and elaboration of norms that occupy much of one's behaviour at that age.
At some point in the 1980s, "prejudice" receded from the lexicon in favour of "racism". Perhaps it was the nature of the incidents that caused racial flare-ups in the 1980s: "prejudice" seems inadequate to describe what motivated Bernhard Goetz or the kids in Howard Beach. Maybe it was a need for thematic simplicity, a desire to maintain a link to the literal racism of South African apartheid, or a political-aesthetic tendency to torque up the accusation. (Imagine Chuck D exhorting people to "fight the power" by calling Elvis "racially prejudiced".) In any case, I wonder whether this was not a mistake. The word "racism" invites dispute because it is simultaneously a much graver accusation, and a less specific one. Is it "racist" simply to believe in the biological existence of races correlated with normatively valorised characteristics such as intelligence and propensity for violence? Does "racist" imply the belief that government and society should actively do something about racial differences? Or does "racist" simply mean someone who feels a sense of allegiance to their own race and treats other races oppositionally, quite apart from any fact-based beliefs they may hold? Many on the left want the term to apply to anyone who spends a lot of time talking about racial IQ comparisons, while retaining the full opprobrium of "racist" in the Nazi sense. Many on the right want the term to apply only to people who openly treat other races as the enemy, while excusing the obvious and classically coded racial resentment that almost universally accompanies supposedly neutral, data-based claims of racial disparities.
I think the term "racial prejudice" evades a lot of these pitfalls. Whatever else Mr Derbyshire's column was, it was prima facie a document that both displayed and advocated racial prejudice. Mr Derbyshire says he literally advised his children to pre-judge black people, to treat them differently than white people based on the colour of their skin. In the Trayvon Martin case, use of the term "racism" leaves a lot of people wondering who the racist is supposed to be. The case that the shooting involved "racial prejudice", that things were vanishingly unlikely to turn out the same way if Mr Martin had been white, is much easier to make. Racial prejudice embraces most of the situations we talk about when we talk about racial conflicts these days.
The down side to this switch is that pretty much everyone is racially prejudiced to some degree. You're using a word that has less condemnatory power, and that many people can envision including themselves. Then again, this, to me, is really the point. The Trayvon Martin case is important not because it suggests that lots of people are actively racist, but because it shows that institutions and rules that fail to account for the fact that most people are tacitly prejudiced can ultimately strip those on the receiving end of that prejudice of their most basic rights.



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Blacks are one standard deviation below whites and Asians in measured IQ. They commit crime at a much greater rate and 70% of the children are illegitamate. Derbyshire told the truth in a gentle way, but the PC maniacs cannot stand the truth.
Watch how blacks will react when Zimmerman is either found not guilty or the case is tossed, which is inevitable. Good times are coming.
Proof please... Cite your sources... 98% of all of us with 180+ IQs know you're full of it. And that's significant to ∞ standard deviations.
BTW, define your terms: "Black," "White," and "Asian" while you're at it. No one else on this forum has even tried despite repeated appeals for a definition of such "races". Same criteria as outlined below.
See Philip L Roth’s 2001 meta analysis in Personal Psychology, Volume 54, Issue 2, pages 297–330, June 2001.
Did you even read it (understand it)? "However, the 1 standard deviation summary of group differences fails to capture many of the complexities in estimating ethnic group differences in employment settings. For example, our results indicate that job complexity, the use of within job versus across job study design, focus on applicant versus incumbent samples, and the exact construct of interest are important moderators of standardized group differences."
Anyway, while signing up for this Wiley Online Library to read your article, I may have discovered an analogy that might help you see some of the massive faults in this social construct of "race"/"ethnicity". When you sign up for this library access, you're asked to identify your "Area of Interest". In the real world, people have many interests. I found several there in the dropdown that would apply to me. However, this site decides to pigeonhole me into choosing one. I'm also not allowed to choose "other" or "multiple". Fortunately it does allow me to change it, if I want, but the fact is the field is rendered meaningless (like race). I'm interested in Chemistry, Religion, Information Systems, etc. Why should I have to choose one?
You do the same thing -- but rather than trying to have people classified by interests, they're classified by physical appearance. Mostly traits like skin color, hair, etc. However, as a DBA I can do nothing but laugh at the Wiley Online Library and its ignorance. If they attempt to do any sort of analysis based on the "interests" of their readership they will fail because their model in no way represents reality. For example, I chose economics because it was one of my interests and it was towards the top. However, economics is a rather large field and there's a lot of mundane crap out there that I'm really not interested in. So, if they use this "Interest" field to send me an email every time they get an "economics" article, I'll quickly start sending their emails to spam. However, if they were really smart they'd recognize that people have varying interests and by more accurately portraying reality they would better engage their readership by alerting them to genuinely interesting articles rather than every little thing that comes through a certain topic.
You are doing the same thing with people. People are either like you, or they are a part of some "other". They're "different". However, my goal is to destroy this fundamental flaw in our society: the belief that my skin color or yours indicates I'm any more (or less) like you than someone with different skin color. There are a few facts that cannot be avoided: those with darker skin color in this country are more likely to come from poorer families and are more likely to be incarcerated. (I figure we have a legacy of slavery, Jim Crow to thank for that -- as well as continued ignorant nonsense being spouted by scared people like yourself.) That's basically all your META-ANALYSIS paper asserts -- certainly not the racial superiority that you claim.
When I was in grad school, my roommates (who were "white") threw a giant pot party at my apartment. When the cops came, they found bags of weed lying everywhere and instead of starting to arrest everyone or shooting people, the police made my roommates and their friends flush the drugs down the toilet. Later, one of these roommates of mine ended up stealing weed from one of the drug dealers upstairs and I had to physically restrain said drug dealer from entering my apartment at 3am to beat up my roommate. This roommate also slashed the tires of his girlfriend's roommate's car and I had to end up taking him to the ER because while he was doing it the blade closed on his finger (ouch!). Guess what, this roommate was "white" but let's say that skin pigment is about the only thing he and I had in common. He dropped out of school later.
He was no less of a delinquent than anyone else who does dumb stuff as a teenager. However, you -- like those cops -- are more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt for doing said dumb stuff than a kid like Trayvon Martin who's only crime was kicking the ass of the guy who was following and harassing him. I mean why would a glorified neighborhood watch guy need to carry a piece around anyway if he can just call the cops? I'll tell you why. He was looking to escalate the situation. He'd gotten that gun permit because he, like you, was scared and WANTED to use it. Anyway, I think it's just silly to bring a pistol to a fist fight.
I do think it's funny, though, that you keep "Recommending" your own comments.
Oh, and before I forget, I'm still waiting to see race defined (or even a complete list of categories) or a full list of its constituent characteristics.
I recommend them because they are excellent (although I realize self praise is no recommendation).
I didn't cite the meta-analysis by Roth as proof of superiority. I cited it as evidence of the existence of group differences on psychometric measures. That has been the case for decades. The causes of those differences continue to be debated. They probably won't be resolved until the genes linked to cognitive ability get identified. There are likely to be many of small effect. Even strict hereditarians note there are environmental factors involved in group differences too.
Come now, yes you did offer it as proof of superiority. Every single one of your posts and articles attempts to call out some group as having inherently inferior intelligence or a predeliction to violence where said groups are poorly defined to Iberian heritage or having dark skin.
However, to hopefully bring us to some agreement, to summarize (and consolidate) your points from the multiple treads:
1) Groups exist -- but we can't concretely define them since they're all subjective
2) Those groups are inherently different with regard to tendancies toward low intelligence, violent behavior, poor job performance -- but we don't know how or why (but we have a pretty good idea it's genetics since we don't know what all of those genes do yet and we're too lazy to incorporate job difficulty and other "environmental factors" into our models)
3) Prejudice based on these groupings *incomplete and subjective but vaguely correlated with the appearance of melanin or Iberian family heritage* is justified because articles continue to point out said differences despite never bothering to completely list/define the groups or deigning to account for explanatory variables.
I'm so sorry, Derb -- I mean, Excellency -- you're right. The world is divided into groups: People who believe your malarky and those who will continue to profit from the remarkable arbitrage opportunities inherent in undervaluing skill and talent based on ill-conceived, irrational, and unrealistic stereotypes.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-...
Not even trying to address any of my arguments? My response: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
You write as though Derbyshire gave his advice in a vacuum. Look at the victims of interracial violence.
"Since 1972, the U.S. Department of Justice has conducted a National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) to determine the frequency of certain crimes. One category is interracial crimes. Its most recent publication (1997), "Criminal Victimization in the U.S.," reports on data collected in 1994. In that year, there were about 1,700,000 interracial crimes, of which 1,276,030 involved whites and blacks. In 90 percent of the cases, a white was the victim and a black was the perpetrator, while in 10 percent of the cases it was the reverse.
Another finding of the NCVS report is that of the 2,025,464 violent crimes committed by blacks in 1994, 1,140,670 were against whites - that's slightly over 56 percent. Whites committed 5,114,692 violent crimes; 135,360, or 2.6 percent were against blacks."
http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?
"In the United States in 2005, 37,460 white females were sexually assaulted or raped by a black man, while between zero and ten black females were sexually assaulted or raped by a white man."
http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=26368
That last bit is bull. Read the article and the data closely. First, throw any article away that cites Wikipedia. Second, you'll notice that it is not between 0 and 10 black females were sexually assaulted/raped. I found the updated dataset here (link in the article is dead). The chart that's mentioned isn't even broken out by gender. Also, even the 20% "other" race figure was based on a sample of fewer than 10 records, meaning the entire sample was probably about 50-60 records. Sorry but that's not significant enough, in my mind, to make the kind of allegations you're making. I mean according to this source, 10% of gang rapes are committed by gangs of all women. Also, even the article points out that "sexual assault" is thrown in here with rape. (Again, sample not statistically significant) http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf
Derb, go home. Relax. Study statistics. Blacks are not evil and not violent like you'd like us to think.
Prejudice...Well, its also known as statistical discrimination or statistical inference. I'm surprised an article in the Economist would find this so shocking. People do it all the time - as do insurance companies. Look at where people choose to send their children to school or the neighborhoods they choose to live in - most people tacitly follow Derbyshire's advice.
http://mises.org/daily/3545
I disagree with the comment in the article that says race exists biologically (I'm not sure if the author meant that statement as fact or was just saying some people believe this)-- I was taught that race does NOT exist biologically, and that race is a continuum. If you lined up everyone on earth from darkest to lightest, where would you draw lines to delineate the races? Is race based solely on skin color or on other physical characteristics? If it's the latter, are white people with black hair a different race than white people with yellow hair? Exactly what "race" are people from the Middle East? the Asian steppe? Are Southern Italians a different race than Scandinavians? You can't answer these questions because race only exists culturally, not biologically. What about someone like me, like most Americans I've been taught to identify with one race but when you think about it it's not so clear-- I'm "white," mostly of Irish and Medditerranean decent, but there's a Native American in the mix and I bet if you went back less than a thousand years I'd have relatives from North Africa. I'm "white" only because I have pale skin and my most recent ancestors were from Europe.
Because race only exists culturally, I think being "racist" means you believe there is something more to it, and that it is possible for one to draw prejudiced conclusions based on race. I think it's the same thing.
Yes, race does exist biologically (unless you think humans are unique from other animals). Look up some population genetics studies by Professor Neil Risch & Hua Tang.
http://www.ln.edu.hk/philoso/staff/sesardic/getfile.php?file=Race.pdf
As Steve Hsu notes:
This clustering is a natural consequence of geographical isolation, inheritance and natural selection operating over the last 50k years since humans left Africa.
Every allele probably occurs in each ethnic group, but with varying frequency....
We see that there can be dramatic group differences in phenotypes even if there is complete allele overlap between two groups - as long as the frequency or probability distributions are distinct. But it is these distributions that are measured by the metric we defined earlier. Two groups that form distinct clusters are likely to exhibit different frequency distributions over various genes, leading to group differences.
This leads us to two very distinct possibilities in human genetic variation:
Hypothesis 1: (the PC mantra) The only group differences that exist between the clusters (races) are innocuous and superficial, for example related to skin color, hair color, body type, etc.
Hypothesis 2: (the dangerous one) Group differences exist which might affect important (let us say, deep rather than superficial) and measurable characteristics, such as cognitive abilities, personality, athletic prowess, etc.
Note H1 is under constant revision, as new genetically driven group differences (e.g., particularly in disease resistance) are being discovered. According to the mantra of H1 these must all (by definition) be superficial differences.
A standard argument against H2 is that the 50k years during which groups have been separated is not long enough for differential natural selection to cause any group differences in deep characteristics. I find this argument quite naive, given what we know about animal breeding and how evolution has affected the (ever expanding list of) "superficial" characteristics. Many genes are now suspected of having been subject to strong selection over timescales of order 5k years or less. For further discussion of H2 by Steve Pinker, see here.
The predominant view among social scientists is that H1 is obviously correct and H2 obviously false. However, this is mainly wishful thinking. Official statements by the American Sociological Association and the American Anthropological Association even endorse the view that race is not a valid biological concept, which is clearly incorrect.
http://infoproc.blogspot.co.nz/2007/01/metric-on-space-of-genomes-and.html
Oh John Derbyshire...The illegal immigrant who managed to gain citizenship after dramatically overstaying his visa, who of course was vociferously against "illegal aliens."
When queried about the apparent hypocrisy, he replied that the difference was that illegal immigrants such himself didn't present the same "cultural" threat that illegal immigrants from Mexico did to American culture...
When you know about his rather hilarious attempt at drawing a distinction between his law breaking and the law breaking by those who cross the Rio Grande, him writing a blatantly prejudiced article based on half-truths about racial disparities is wholly unsurprising.
He basically argued, after all, that what he did was okay because he's white. Sadly for him, immigration law doesn't draw a distinction by saying it's okay to violate the law if you're a white Protestant from an English-speaking country...
The funniest thing is, most of those illegals crossing the Rio Grande are "white", too. "White Hispanic" according to the Census. Since, as we all know, Hispanic heritage is different from "race". It's "ethnicity." If you don't believe me, look into the way US Census -- I assume the standard bearer for the US Government -- categorizes race and ethnicity. Then, read my opinion below on why race doesn't exist.
If you still don't believe me, at least provide a list of races and/or physical characteristics (and measurements) that determine "race". The tricky bit is your definition must be adequate to cover 100% of people 100% of the time and a person's race cannot change with age, plastic surgery, or even simply dying (or shaving) hair or getting a tan. Best marks if you can make it simple enough for people to actually use. Also, we all know "self-reporting" is unreliable.
He's right. In terms of assimilation those from the UK are more likely to do well than low skill migrants from Mexico. Unfortunately, California learned this too late and is facing bankruptcy.
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrd/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2R...
Of course English speaking immigrants from the UK are going to do better assimilating into your Anglo culture than Latin Americans. Since you seem to be the resident racist troll in this thread, I just wanted to be the first to say, "No sh*t Sherlock" to your silly statement.
As a reader of the Economist, no doubt you'd like to make your arguments a bit more robust and control for things like language barriers, relative development of home countries, and, my favorite -- the fact that a large chunk of the "American" west WAS Mexico so of course there's already a Latino culture taken hold and less likely to "integrate" with the English colonial areas that were so effectively cleansed of its original inhabitants.
The problem is that subsequent generations are underperforming. This imposes greater costs downstream and reduces economic competitiveness (see California*). In other words, it's an economically irresponsible policy.
http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_502JGR.pdf
"A recent study by UC Santa Barbara's California Dropout Research Project estimates that high-school dropouts in 2007 alone will cost the state $24.2 billion in future economic losses.
Even those who graduate aren't necessarily headed to success. According to one study, 69 percent of Latino high-school graduates "do not meet college requirements or satisfy prerequisites for most jobs that pay a living wage." It is difficult to see how the majority-Hispanic labor force of the future can provide the skills that the sophisticated Los Angeles economy demands."
* http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023
Look, given your sourcing in the comment above about the DOJ figures, you've got to demand more robust documentation of your sources - and I just don't see anything robust in these articles, much less anything that can be extrapolated to the Hispanic population at large. I've got to see sample sizes and significance intervals as well as sample and survey design. Poor survey methodology can create incredible skew and I've already seen how your sources like to hunt for an individual number, misinterpret it and latch on. I can hunt for surveys and studies all day that will have you thinking the sky is green and up is down. In the NRO article you cited (via NPR) there are some key phrases in there that should immediately trigger your inner skeptic:
"According to one study,..."
--> This should set off ALARM BELLS!!! It gets used a lot to push an agenda. If the specifics of this study are not detailed, don't take it for rote. This study could have been total garbage. More than likely the author was number hunting to push his point. I used to work in this industry and I know that if your bosses are paid a bunch of money to get a result and the numbers don't please the clients, you'll get asked to see if you can get *better* numbers. I don't work in that industry anymore.
"Two-thirds of kindergarten students were Hispanic, most of them unable to speak English."
-->Really, kindergarteners? My son is this age and his speech development had always been a bit behind many of our friends' children -- because we're raising him bilingual (English/Japanese). In other things he's been ahead of other kids but we've been advised to seek speech therapy because he wasn't speaking full sentences. In the last few months he's broken out of his shell and really progressed - without speech therapy. He just needed more time to get used to using two languages.
You'll get no argument from me on the poor condition and poor value of American schools. I've gone through all levels of education here and I must say there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Presuming you and the "FrontPageMag.com" author are also products of this system I can see how we really need to focus on statistics and critical thinking. There are basic concepts of data management that never got covered until grad school -- but that are so simple any 12 year old would understand them. (Like database normalization) Also, I'd make study abroad mandatory. While studying in Mexico and South America in pursuit of my degree in Latin American studies, I've met a lot of amazing people and had wonderful experiences which I'm sure if more people were able to do this it would flip these ignorant ideas on its head.
The bottom line is this: You can read as many poorly cited articles as you like, but the most important survey is the one you do every day of your life. It's your interaction with other people. As you do this real-life survey if you do it with bias in your mind, guess what, you're going to get biased results. You're going to latch on to every negative thing you see about people you don't like and attribute that to the group as a whole while dismissing bad things you see from people of your own "group" as individual one offs.
At my current job there are people who are great workers and there are some who are lazy, obstenate, and just down right unpleasant. There is no magic indicator on their foreheads (like skin color or something) that can tell you which is which. Some of the most excedingly competent, professional people I work with have dark skin - others have light skin. Again, among the lazy people there are those with light skin and those with dark skin.
Throughout my life experience, skin color has been terribly coorelated with performance. A lot of the people I rely on for the great work they do are people of color. That said, fashion sense seems to be a *bit* better, though. And all I'm going to say about that is this: Ladies, when you're in college, watch out for the guys with popped collars and free plastic cups of cheap beer.
Most importantly, what seems to escape a lot of these racist tirades against "big, dangerous Blacks" and "lazy, Mexicans" is consideration for the women. This is how I know that most of this racism is just based on fear. I've got to say there are a lot of amazing women out there of every "race". If you're racist, you will miss out on some wonderful experiences. Big Pun said it best: "I don't discriminate. I regulate every shade of that..." :)
Eliminate the fear from your soul, man.
Fear --> Anger --> Hate --> Suffering.
With Love,
Shibakoen
To demand, in any definition of "race", criteria that absolutely distinguish races, is to set up a straw man. Can we agree that sex exists? That there are men, and women, and that the word "man" is biologically meaningful?
Now, try to define "man". Your definition must put into the category of man, or woman, every last person. Including those born with ambiguous genitalia. Including those with XXY chromosomes. Including those who have had surgery. Of course you can't do it.
That doesn't in any way prove that the notion of sex is biologically meaningless.
I agree, but it ain't no straw man. When my argument is taken to its logical conclusion gender is also a bit of a fuzzy area, also. But that IS the reality of it. There are people born with ambiguous or multiple genitalia, etc. Some more enlightened surveys are allowing for choices different from the standard "Male" or "Female". It's important because policy is built around it and what should a transgendered driver put on their license? Can they compete in Olympic games? If so, which gender? (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5254602n) There's a transgendered woman at work who works on a different floor and I've always wondered which restroom does she use?
Biologically, however, it's not meaningless. Gender does exist. A male cannot get a male pregnant and a female cannot get a female pregnant (yet - I don't think - without cloning and test tubes). But then again there are a lot of men and women who were born "with all the right bits" but cannot have kids, either. Is a man still a man if he's been chemically castrated? If a woman has had a hysterectomy, is she still a woman?
From a database perspective, all of this complexity can be dealt with. You can make presence of certain genitalia the determinant of gender according to your policy. If testes present = man. If testes absent = woman. If both = hermaphrodite. If neither = asexual. (To me it seems sometimes that presence of penis is the current determining factor. If you've got one, you're a man. I've you don't, or it's not clear, you're a woman.) The bottom line is that a good gender database is feasible.
You can also allow for "if surgically constructed" into another category. You also mentioned Chromosomes. YY, XXY and XXX and XXXY are a heck of a lot easier to deal with in a database (via more realistic contraints) than any database which depends on such ridiculously poorly defined determinants that we have for race. Let's face it, you're going to have more than two genders but that's manageable -- and a better representation of reality. The idea of distinguishable races, however, is absurd in the extreme.
The bottom line to all of these categories is this: there are people "like me" and there are "others." If I'm an idiot (racist) I will define what's "like me" based on appearance -- especially something like skin color -- because I'm lazy and/or scared and I don't want to actually have to talk to the person and that's what my ma' and pa' always told me. However, for Shibakoen, the Economist troll, I'm the only one like me. Everyone else is "the other". Some of you are more interesting than others. The most interesting ones are generally the ones that don't try their whole lives to fit into some "group". Like, "I'm a Republican". "I'm a Progressive". "I'm a Christian; I'm a Muslim" "I'm black"; "I'm white". "I'm a Keynesian", "I follow Hayek". "I'm gay" or "I'm straight". Think for yourself and leave those constructs behind. Life's a lot more interesting that way.
My basic point wasn't that gender is a hard and fast category, much less race, but that even words and the concepts behind them that have no absolute boundaries can be meaningful. Categories that shade off, the one into the other, can be as simple as the colors of the rainbow. And yet, we do not say that "green" is meaningless.
Talk about a straw man. Are you saying that skin color is the only determinant of race? I'd love for that to be the case because then we could do some definitive controlled experiments regarding melanin content and intelligence. Put me in a tanning booth for an hour, see if I'm dumber, and when I'm not - and no more violent - it will put all of this silliness to rest. We could also clearly define the groupings but we would have to assume that people can change race if their skin color were to get lighter or darker through life.
The presumption is that race is more complex than just skin color and that it correlates with inteligence, predeliction to violence, etc. However, nobody seems to like to go deeper when confronted with the reality of their presumptions.
We now that dogs as a species represent many breeds. Still, they are different; one breed runs faster that the other, another breed is more intelligent or children-friendly etc. That`s how we choose dogs when buying them.
Why do you think humans, who are also one species, are the same?
Because dogs has been selectivly bred to gain certain traits. Humans has not, and it is highly unlikely that the evolutionary pressure has been hard enough on humans the last 10 000 years or so for any proper evolution.
And even if you DO believe that we still have evolution, well the best trick is always to mix :)
The best trick for the sharp child of two smart parents is to mix with a stupid mate?
The best trick for the sprinter child of two athletes is to mix with an endomorphic fatso?
The best trick for a tall child of two towering parents is to mix with a short child?
Who exactly are you smiling at?
I am smiling at someone how tries to speak in evolutionary, and doesn't have a bloody clue how it works!
Evolutionary does not benefit the strongest, or smartest or tallest. It benefits the "fittest". You are thinking about artificial selection, WHICH IS NOT THE SAME AS NATURAL!
Natural selection does not care if you are smart, or good looking or a great runner, there is no such "goals" no natural selection. It cares about one thing: Will you be getting grand children. Now, when a creature is under heavily evolutionary pressure, that will sometimes mean becoming stronger and smarter, and sometimes, like when living on an island, becoming dumber and smaller.
So fitness is not as much how good you are now, obviously all humans are doing fine, but whites having stopped get as much kids could be seen doing worst. The question is, if you believe that humanity acts like anyother species in the wild, wether or not humans can adapt. And in order to adapt you need genetical variation, i.e. MIX.
Or to quote the Modern evolutionary synthesis:
"Thinking in terms of populations, rather than individuals, is primary: the genetic diversity existing in natural populations is a key factor in evolution. The strength of natural selection in the wild is greater than previously expected; the effect of ecological factors such as niche occupation and the significance of barriers to gene flow are all important."
There is no doubt that certain populations exhibit certain traits to a greater or lesser degree than other populations. The point is that the American construction of race does not have any basis in biology or an explanatory capacity that goes beyond skin color. Your dog example is not the equivalent to the racial construct in America. Extending the American racial construct to dogs could look like this: All dogs with spots are one breed (race), dogs without spots - another, dogs with stripes, etc.. In this example, the breed distinction has no explanatory capacity that goes beyond one superficial physical characteristic. The same is true of race in America. Does someone with a genealogy that traces back to eastern Russia share more traits in common with someone from Iceland than someone from Japan? The American racial construct would say the individuals with a Russian and Icelandic lineage share a race, while they are distinct from the Japanese individual. The point is that though using skin color as a signifier of other characteristics is easy and requires almost no thought, it is a basically false premise.
Partly agree. Still, southern people (real southern, not like, let`s say Celts who moved from Iberia to present-day Ireland etc) need to care less to survive than people from the north. Few hundreds years ago if one was not working hard enough in summer, it was almost sure they would not get through winter. This left a deep mark on local population/psyche.
Two most important things for survival are food and warmth. Everything on Earth is governed by energy availability, as we know. In the south, less energy needed, e g only food (if it is not a desert...) whereas in the north one needs both.
For instance, a Greek person have more possibility to enjoy beer sitting in the yard; A Scotsman is more likely to have to be indoors with heating on and therefore have to work more to to secure it.
PS: natural disasters etc are accounted in my comment I hope (happen in the north and south)
Well, yes and no.
Apart from skin, different races display variability in skull shape, nose etc. But that is not important really at the end. Every race has some absolutely exceptional individuals. But some have more that others. And it is not down to recent history. If we speak about 3 major races, 2 of them build masterpieces and and studied the sky centuries or even thousands ears ago and still do now. The remaining 1 race remained largely the same.
Actually, the rate of evolution has accelerated over the past 10,000 years in response to changes in diet (agriculture) and new cultural environments. Hence more ethnic differences. See "The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accerlated Human Evolution" by Cochran & Harpending.
Also, see Jonathan Haidt's article here.
http://www.edge.org/q2009/q09_4.html#haidt
I used to rent a room from a black lady in the UK. She treated me well (at the end of the day - I pay money).
I remember she used to complain: why it is Indians who sell hair extensions (mostly to black people); why black people cannot organise this kind of business?
I remember she she told me she went to Africa (although she was Caribbean) and found a girl on the street there; now she pays a small amount of money to her parents every then and now to educate the girl, etc;
Then questions arise:
Why she gives money to an African girl? why not Mongolian or Vietnamese? She is a racist, perhaps. Why she thinks Indian people don't need to feed their families and earn money by, for instance, selling heir extensions. 'Prejudice again".
May I quote TE reader "MP019":
"1. Bruce Lahn & Lanny Ebenstein suggested in Nature that people may have to adapt to a new understanding of human genetic diversity as more genomic information comes to light.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7265/box/461726a_BX1.html
2. Psychologist Jonathan Haidt and Geoffrey Miller have also written about this dilemma of average group differences being identified as the cost of genomics falls.
http://www.edge.org/q2009/q09_4.html#haidt
3. As an example, UC Davis economist Greg Clark has noted that populations with settled agriculture, state control and stable property rights there was greater selection for – patience, self-control, passivity, and hard work – which consequently spread widely. With the state monopolising violence, you have selection against interpersonal violence (male homicide fell in the UK from the 12th century to the 19th). In year round tropical agricultural societies where, you have female farming economies, there was less need for paternal investment, the State was weak, and where prestige goes to the ‘big man’ there is selection for different average traits and higher levels of interpersonal violence.
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/1/10.full "
These ARE worthy arguments.
I was going to write approvingly of this piece until you accused Bernhard Goetz of racism. 37% of blacks approved of the shooting. If you consider that racist, you've really lost all credibility to talk about race.
Only curious, but where did you find that statistic?
Googled it.
Race is an obfuscation of the fact that the Trayvon Martin was solely about letting ordinary untrained individuals wander around the streets with loaded weapons in their pockets. Idiots will get angry and accost people of any ethnicity for all sorts of reasons. Drunks, soccer hooligans, vigilantes, road ragers, etcetera. Deplorable, but fixed by a simple police intervention. Where there is a gun involved, however, sooner or later it will go off, and someone will die. It is the complete inability to politically confront the gun issue that leads to an offset on other potential causations. Yes, if you were a white guy in a hoodie, you could indeed get shot. Same if you looked, say, Arab or Mexican. Anger, scuffle, rage, bang, bang, bang. Free gun usage is barbarian nonsense, and there is no lesson here for humanity.
"classically coded racial resentment that almost universally accompanies supposedly neutral, data-based claims of racial disparities"
The left is on the science denying end of data-based-racial-disparities. While most all of what Derbyshire said was evil, immoral, racist, and advocating of discrimination, it doesnt make sense to say that all data based claims of racial disparities are inherently false just because they do not always yeild the comfortable and preferable answer that all races are exactly the same. It is racism when such studies are used as a way to discriminate against and stereotype individuals as Derbyshire does, but pointing out that group A shows trait Y more than group B should not be construed as a claim that all B's are Y deficient.
So "racial prejudice" has less condemnatory power- well, tell that to Trayvon who is six feet under the ground. It's our actions that matter and America will be judged by how we respond to the bigots among us.
He is under ground because he accosted Zimmerman. The overwhelming majority of victims of interracial violence are white. If you look at revealed behavior, you'll find that most white liberals and conservatives tacitly follow his advice anyway.
I think the lack of agreement on what's racist is a problem in dire need of resolving.
I'd define "race" as a social construct based on physical characteristics. I'd define "discrimination" as treating someone differently in deed. I'd define "prejudice" as treating someone differently in thought. Not merely thinking them different but thinking they should be treated differently. I'd distinguish between justifiable and unjust racial discrimination. Justifiable racial discrimination uses race as merely a physical marker like hair color or height without an extrapolation to behavior. Police might use justifiable racial discrimination if they get a report of a crime and the description of the perp includes his race. Unjust racial discrimination uses race as a determinant of behavior. Police might use unjust discrimination if they stop a black man because they believe being black he's more likely to have committed a crime. I'd point out here that while race can be a close proxy for culture, culture can be, in certain circumstances, determinant of behavior in ways that race is not. This is where a lot of people get in trouble. Using race as a proxy for culture in praise isn't technically correct but it's excusable if it's a harmless observation. E.g., "Asians work hard." Using race as a proxy for culture in condemnation isn't correct and shouldn't be excused because it can reinforce unjust racial discrimination. E.g., "blacks are lazy." At the same time, when there is cultural causation and race isn't used as a proxy, pointing it out isn't racist. "Avoid crime-prone neighborhoods" isn't racist.
Of course, there are those on the fringe who think there's genetic causation between race and behavior. I wouldn't say pointing it out is necessarily racist but even if true, there are enough exceptions to the generalization that unjust racial discrimination can't be justified. This can be distinguished from discrimination based on a physical handicap like schizophrenia where generalizations may hold enough to justify the discrimination where the handicap is relevant.
As for policies like Stand Your Ground which are racially neutral on their face but may have racially disparate impacts, we should be able to debate them without calling each other racist.
Racist.
J/K.... probably.
Anyways, I prefer a definition that includes power dynamics. There's "prejudice," and then there's racism. As M.S. points out, the term is very broad, but I would argue that it needs to be, given all the various levels and avenues of American society and culture where racial animus, prejudice, and/or discrimination exist.
"it needs to bd....all the various levels and avenues of american society where racial animjs exist"
True. You and the thought police need very specific labels to make sure not one sliver of politically incorrect sentiment escapes your witch hunt.
Trayvon died because a vigilante was sure he could use Stand Your Ground as a defense. Travon was targeted because he was a black kid. Is that racism? I'm not sure but I'm sure it's very very wrong.
Did Zimmerman know about Stand Your Ground?
I've read he did and is now tailoring his defense to fit it.
Trayvon died because a bullet penetrated his vital organs. Though that became necessary only after he decided to bash Zimmerman's skull into the pavement.
Trayvon Martin died because an at least mildly racist, self-appointed neighborhood watch-person decided a young black man was inherently suspicious and confronted him with a loaded firearm.
You forgot the fact that Zimmerman was rightly suspicious of the hooded and gold toothed Williams. He was found at school with a backpack full of stolen jewlery and burglars tools. There was nothing illegal about following him. It was illegal when williams decided to attack the much smaller zimmerman, just as he did a bus driver a few days earlier. An eyewitness reported that after he broke his nose he bashed his head on the ground he was atop zimmerman beating him as zimmerman screamed for help. He shot williams as a last resort.
Williams?
So, Trayvor Martin was 6'0'' and weight 160 pounds, Zimmerman 5'9'' and weight 185 pounds... how is that much smaller?
And the rest I just think you made up, as far as I know de had only been suspended for marijuana smoking.
"rightly suspicious"? Based on what?
You've got someone walking back from the store. This is suspicious? You've got someone wearing a sweatshirt. That is suspicious? You've got someone wearing a hood when it is raining. That is suspicious?
If you are going to claim that Zimmerman was rightly suspicious, how about some criteria on which to base that. Preferably criteria which excludes me, any time I'm walking home from the store in bad weather? Criteria that excluded the fair skin and blue eyes. Go for it!
Well JGradus, It seems that you are poorly informed. Zimmerman was 5'7'', Martin was 6'3'' 180 and a football player and I didn't make anything up.
In addition to the suspension for marijuana.... "Trayvon had been suspended two other times, once for truancy and another time for graffiti. While investigating the graffiti offense, The Herald reported, a school employee found jewelry, a watch and a screwdriver in Trayvon’s backpack"
The jewlery was several diamond wedding rings and wedding bands which Trayvon told school officials he was, "holding for a friend".
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/us/shooter-of-florida-teen-describes-a...
"correspondence with Martin on Twitter before he died alludes to an incident with a bus driver. "Yu ain't tell me you swung on a bus driver," Martin's cousin wrote to him on Feb. 21."
""With a single punch," the Orlando Sentinel, citing police sources, reported Monday, "Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer ... climbed on top of [him] and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered.""
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-shooting-details-emer...
The fact that he was in fact a burglar is why he was rightly suspicious. We know that Trayvon was walking around with gold teeth, a black hood, and a back pack. He was found at school with jewlery and burglary tools. If a neighborhood watchmen isn't supposed to follow someone like that, then what, jouris, is a neighborhood watchmen supposed to do?
This is exactly like when everyone condemned the duke lacrosse team. I'm sure you were there.
I hadn't realized that Zimmerman was gifted with esp, to know those details (if true, which is apparently is in dispute) about the individual he was looking at. Good to know -- although I do wonder why he hasn't found other ways to make use of his unique talent.
It just means his profiling was accurate. Mind you were talking about a neighborhood watchman here, not the Los Angeles police department. This isn't a discriminatory policy that violates the civil rights of millions of people. Its one single individual being successfully identified by a private citizen as a burglar. If you can't see the difference its because you don't want to, jouris.
I do not think there is anything that supports the assumption that Martin was "targeted because he was a black kid". Zimmerman's history of frequent police reports seem to support the notion that he would have responded to any stranger who behaved as Martin did (according to the "DeeDee" narrative, he was trying to get into an apartment complex - even allowing that his intent was to get out of the rain, it does not look good in a neighborhood that had experienced a lot of break-ins).
Zimmerman may have used bad judgement, the SYG law may be flawed, and there is no question that this is tragic but you need a lot more information before you can demonstrate racism in this case.
My goodness. And the trial not even commenced. How do you know what happened, much less why? There is a great deal of room for different scenarios, all within the boundaries set by what we, the general public, know for a fact.
I'm a big fan of words with less condemnatory power. I think the risk of under-condemning one another has, for now at least. been contained.
The racial IQ comparisons have always struck me as bizarre. Why should we even start with the hypothesis that one body organ, the skin, is so closely related to a second body organ, the brain?
No doubt because skin color is closely linked to the ability to play guitar.
See: Hendrix, Jimmy. :)
Race is a reflection of different geographic ancestry over the past 50,000 or so years. Skin color is only one feature of these evolutionary differences. You could also look at things like brain shape and average volume (eg.Whole brain size and general mental ability: a review. Int J Neurosci. 2009;119(5):691-731.)
Also, as Professor Robert Weinberg notes in the final lecture in Biology 7.012 at MIT (2004), it is quite plausible that groups in different environments would have different average traits.
http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2011/05/forbidden-thoughts.html
Nobody is doing that. The claim is that the tests have already been given, and the scores have already been added up and tallied and averaged, and that when the arithmetic was completed and the numbers compared, they came out different.
That, moreover, when a different IQ test was devised, and a different sample tested, they again came out different. That the differences were consistent with the previously computed differences.
And then there's the claim of validity. The claim is that IQ, as measured by these various tests, is correlated to a meaningful degree (not 100% correlated, but somewhere in the rough vicinity of 50% correlated) with real-world performance in tasks or training that are ordinarily understood to be cognitively loaded.
The claim is not a hypothesis. It's a claim about facts. It can be refuted, or confirmed, by examining the literature about IQ tests and how the averages came out.
"Whatever else Mr Derbyshire's column was, it was prima facie a document that both displayed and advocated racial prejudice."
One of my favorite quotes related to racism can be found in Ken Burns' documentary "Jazz", where a black man (I believe an historian) says, to paraphrase -
"There are three brilliant American creations: The Declaration of Independence, baseball, and jazz. And, black Americans were instrumental in the development of two of them."
Blacks Americans have been carrying white Americans for a long time now. :)
Hmmm, I think there's probably more than three.
Personally, I would also have added air conditioning, spare ribs, and containerized shipping. :)
There's one race in question here and its the human race.
Unfortunately, while you are techincally correct, the term as it is generally used today is applies to much narrower groups. There is little obvious prospect of getting the great majority to move to the correct usage.
About the only thing one can profitably do is insist, whenever asked one's race, that "mixed" is the only valid category. If enought of us blue-eyed blonds do so, and can get those around us to do the same, the term may finally fade into well-deserved oblivion.
It's okay to acknowledge, and even embrace, that society has different races and cultures.
Yes, but that is a strictly English understanding of the word, is it not? Like i Martial and Non-martial races, i.e. meaning basically just a people?
I was thought that humanity doesn't have races, we are all Homo Sapiens Sapiens, A different biological race would be Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, if you believe in that classification
Human beings are all the same species -- defined as populations which can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Neanderthals are, technically, a sub-species. There is some evidence that they could, and did, interbreed with homo sapien sapiens.
Race is a still smaller sub-category. To the extent that it means anything, race is a set of characteristics which present a visual difference. Once, populations were physically separated enough that virtually everybody was in one group or another. But that time is long gone. Being all of the same species, people from those groups could interbreed. And did. So toady, any racial definitions have to have one (or probably several) categories which amount to "mixed."
But, as my oversimplified response to Mr. Coppe noted, that doesn't keep people from using a very small set of "races" as their personal categorization. Maybe they included some kind of mixed category ("coloureds" in apartheid South Africa). Maybe they use (or try to use) an exclusivist approach -- the "one drop" system in the American South a century ago. The fact that, in reality, none of those systems account for all of humanity doesn't keep people from insisting on trying to use them.
Well, not necesserily, this is why English is a stupid language :).
In Swedish (where the modern taxonomic system originated) race (ras) and subspecies (underart) is used IN BIOLOGY as interchangable. While that is being faced out, it surely was the case when the Rasbiologiska Institutet was founded, the world's first institute for eugenics (you are welcome World). This definition of race was also the standard in Germany in this point history.
So why I fully understand your point based on the English language, race as originally understood in the word racism is the same as subspecies.
I would say that English is an eclectic language -- it gathers in words from lots of other languages. ("Eclectic"...so much better than saying "mongrel". ;-) )
But it routinely only takes part of their original meaning when it does so. So "race" in English may have the same root as ras. But expecting the meaning of the two words to be more than slightly related is a stretch. Maybe it should make a difference. But in reality, it shouldn't be expected to matter in daily use.
I take it you are opposed to affirmative action then.
Race is a poor construct and does not really exist. Take any characteristic or measurement (based on physiology or fashion) that would individually or in aggregate assign an individual to one of these silly 'ethnic groups' and no doubt you'll end up getting innumerable unintelligble subgroups. The fact that many of these characteristics can change naturally through time (or be changed) further renders these nominal fraternalisms pointless.
Let's do an experiment. I will show you 200 faces, 100 of which will be from Norwegians and 100 of which will be from Australian Aborigines. Your job is to determine which faces are from which "cline" (to use the approved terminology, wink wink).
I suspect you would be able to do it with 100% accuracy.
But no, seriously, race is just a "social construct." LOL.
Biological groupings do not bear a 1:1 relationship to the races the author speaks of here. Your comment betrays a simplistic and incomplete understanding of this theory of "social construction."
I think you are over-intellectualizing the notion of "race". It certainly would help to simply re-define the problem by saying "technically, 'race' doesn't really exist", but I think that lacks any real persuasive power. After all, the term "race" did not develop in a vacuum, and the vast groups of people on the planet are certainly capable of recognizing that other groups are different from each other.
Whether it is a social construct or not, the term "race" exists, and people use it to draw distinctions between groups. The mere fact that you can theoretically draw physical and cultural distinctions all the way down to the individual level (thereby rendering every unique individual an effective "race" unto themselves) does not mean that the Chinese cannot tell themselves apart from Nigerians. The mere fact that biology and race are not perfect 1:1 correlations, therefore race doesn't exist, is like claiming that dog breeds do not correlate with dog species, therefore dog breeds do not exist.
If you are going to debate the topic, you have to at least operate under the basic assumption that "race" exists (either as a social or biological concept), otherwise there is nothing to debate -- and the Trayvon Martin case shows that there is definitely something to debate here.
I agree completely. Race, gender, etc are constructed by societies, but they most certainly 'exist,' and claiming otherwise is hardly a useful statement within a debate about the Trayvon Martin, e.g.
I was just responding to Dan K. Wynn's mistaken implication that because biological subgroups can be delineated, our racial constructions must therefore be equally valid.
OK, let's do it. However, we do need to account for some assumptions, first. For example, what if some of my 200 faces are the children of Norwegian/Australian Aboriginal couples? So, I'm assuming multiple races are possible? But in common parlance we only talk about absolutes. President Obama is "black". Tiger Woods is "black." Are you a "one-dropper"? Sorry, but I'm not and I'm also not so patient to back through everybody's family history to check if there's a drop there. Are we assuming your Norwegians are of the same race of your average Italian? Can you distinguish your average Han Chinese from your average Ainu Japanese -- or are all "Asians" the same to you? If that's the case, believe me, when you get to Kazakhstan and even Russia, you're gonna start questioning your ability to pick out an "Asian" from a "European".
I am a database administrator (DBA) so I don't have the luxury of building databases where concepts are so ill-defined as race - particularly when the characteristics change (intentionally or not). Also, when I build applications for my databases the killer is 508 compliance. What's the point of such a construct when the blind cannot make a distinction?
Anyway, I'd love to take your bet since you chose a nationality (Norwegian) instead of a supposed ethnicity. I know "black" Irish, I'm sure I could find a few Norwegians of at least questionable "race". However, I'm sure your basing your choices on common stereotypes. (Blonde, light skinned Norwegians/dark skinned, dark haired Aborigines) In that case, I'll just cheat and throw in Sofia Vergara - a natural blonde Hispanic - or some actors from Mexican telenovelas.
So you acknowledge there are genetic differences between groups of people. Great! We're on the right path then.
Good job tearing down those straw men, but unfortunately for you the reality is a bit more complex. Differences between races are matters of degree. A DNA test can tell the difference between a Chinese and a Japanese, but most people cannot tell by simply looking at them. However you seem to implicitly agree that both Japanese and Chinese are more similar to one another than either is to an Italian---and I agree. Surely if you are arguing earnestly you would agree that a Swede is more similar to a Sicilian and he is to a Xhosa. You might even say that the Sicilian and the Swede are part of the same race, even after accounting for their differences.
There is a field known as forensic anthropology. Given only a hair, the forensic anthropologist can tell you the race of the person it came from. He can tell the same from a skull or a skeleton. The forensic anthropologist has very little time for social niceties and fictions like the idea that race doesn't exist.
On a rainbow we can tell that orange and yellow are distinct colors, but where is the precise line where orange becomes yellow? Just because we don't have a precise dividing line does not bean the real distinctions do not exist.
If race doesn't exist, why do we have so many policies that are racially based? Apparently race only exists when an oppressed race needs to be given a leg up at the expense of other races. But otherwise it doesn't exist. Trenchant doublethink, that.
Races are simply extended families. They exist, they're real, and everyone knows they're real. Go up to any ghetto dwelling black and try to explain to him that there's no such thing as black people and white people, that his West African ancestors are exactly the same as your Northern European (or whatever) ancestors. He will laugh in your face, and rightly so.
"Are you a "one-dropper"? Sorry, but I'm not..."
You claim that race is social construct and then you specify biological parameters for establishing it. If you accept that race is a social construct then it makes absolutely no sense to take offense at "one dropping" since you are accepting that an individual's race is defined by society. Your example of Mexican novelas is invalid because Mexican society has totally different constructs by which to define race as does Brazil, China, and every other society on earth. Still, even if you accept race as a social construct defined by individuals and society, you can still correlate things like intelligence and aggressiveness with those self and societal identifications. This only becomes a problem when society identifies an individual as belonging to a certain race and diverges in its treatment of that individual through both negative and positive discrimination.
"common stereotypes. (Blonde, light skinned Norwegians/dark skinned, dark haired Aborigines)"
Dark skinned, dark haired aborigines is a stereotype? Maybe, but in this case I think its a pretty good one. Show me a light haired, light skinned Australian Aborigine.... and it better not be Mick "Crocodile" Dundee!
If races exist, surely you can list them. The Census Bureau's been trying for years and keeps changing their method. Or, at least list the characteristics. I'm sure skin color will be in there -- but a) how do you measure it? and b) when do you measure? Before or after a visit to a tanning bed? If you cannot do this simple task of laying out the characteristics or listing the possibilities, then it cannot exist.
If DNA is the characteristics then we get back to my point that race is so ill-defined that it is meaningless and thus doesn't exist. There is an entire spectrum of genetic variation and the genes themselves can be suppressed and inactive. If you define race by DNA then you just defined the individual - and we won't even get into chimerism or the really tricky things.
To get back to the DNA tests, those results are given in percentages and based on geographic location of samples taken from other genetic populations. For any finance database, for example, I cannot have the kind of error that exists in these tests. "Oh, I'm 99% sure you've got $100-$105 in your bank account." Yet we build policy based not on DNA tests but vague, poorly defined physical characteristics. The fact is, we identify with people who "look like us" and "act like us" and we disapprove of "others". However, NONE OF YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PROVIDE A SIMPLE DEFINITION THAT ACCOUNTS FOR 100% OF INDIVIDUALS. Why? BECAUSE SUCH AN EXPLANATION DOES NOT EXIST.
Ever heard of Albinism? You also never answered with regard to what "race" is the "Norwegian/Aborigine mix". And if race is so fragmented that Aborigine is its own category and Nord is its own category then IT IS MEANINGLESS AND thus a useless categorization that means nothing.
Does society define the "race" as you say, or is it self defined? Barack Obama would be half one race, half another, but self identifies as black. However, Soledad O'Brien (the one named after a prison - Mr. Ailes) apparently doesn't count as black to some despite her an Afro-cuban heritage.
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/10/soledad-obrien-jesse-jackson-bl...)
It's all moot anyway because you completely gave away the goat in the previous answer. So if I take a telenovela star and put him in another society, his race can change based on the social constructs of the new society? You just proved that the idea is meaningless.
My point to all of you is to put your money where your mouth is and define these norms. Define these characteristics. Define race in a substantive way where I can take some meaningful variables and put them in a database. Otherwise, IT DOESN'T EXIST.
As a DBA, I live in the error, I live in the "exceptions". If it cannot be defined -- if it cannot be quantified -- it doesn't exist. Characteristics must be 100% or nothing. I can't have maybes. Maybes are pointless.
I fully admit that race is a social construct, albeit not a meaningless one as you would like to pretend. You think I am arguing that race is valid for biological reasons, but this is not what I am saying. I don't see how race being a social construct makes any and all conclusions based on that fact invalid. How is it meaningless when you readily acknowledge that society attributes meaning? For example, your position is meaningless when applied to the following piece of hypothetical data, "90% of self identified whites have higher IQ's than the average self identified black". Does the fact that race is not defined by specific biological parameters necessarily falsify anything about that statement? I think not.
I really don't even understand what you are arguing, except that you seem to be saying you don't enjoy grouping people. Which is fine. You and your left leaning compatriots seem to suffer from the opposite of the childhood condition known as being a "sorter". Its only a problem because you presume those not affected by this to be racists.
Ha, no. I'm just a simple DBA. I used to work in demographic research and I'd love to be able to build a comprehensive demographic database that perfectly accounts for race. It's impossible. If it were possible you could even list the races or at least its characteristics and a way to measure it. If it were possible, the Census Bureau would be able to identify it and wouldn't need to change its methodology every time it does a count. But it does, every time, and there's always people who don't fit.
Anyway, I'm arguing that it is a poorly defined construct and thus does not really exist - but policies depend on it. It's like Dark Energy. Physicists think it's there but until they can define it, I'm not taking it for granted that it exists. Sure, genetic differences are there but that's individuality. Income exists. We can work to increase income levels and eliminate poverty.
Funny to pin me as left-leaning. My coworkers think I'm a right winger. :)
We are basically apes. Apes don't have different skin colour.I'm confused. Different skin colour is NOT a sign of difference. In DNA terms it's insignificant, isn't it?
Perhaps the issue that shibakoen is trying to get to is that, while you can group people (into races or otherwise), it isn't really possible to do so on any kind of effective and consistent manner. For any basis you choose, there are exceptions which cannot be accounted for.
For example, it is possible to have someone, most of whose ancestors were from East Asia. But with just two ancestors, even if a dozen generations back, who were descended from blue-eyed a blond, you can get someone who looks just like the stereotype East Asian . . . except for the blue eyes. Unlikely? Sure. But it happens; all it takes is a European (even if only a carrier of a blue-eyed gene, rather than having blue eyes himself) on each side of the family. And if those two recessive genes come together -- Presto blue eyes.
And since that sort of thing happens (and it does), any definition of "race" that you come up with has to address it -- which race does someone like that belong to? Do you have a single characteristic which "matters"? Or a collection of characteristics -- in which case, how many do you have to have to get into which race?
What it comes down to is this: even assuming that "race" meant something a couple thousand years ago, when there were mostly separated populations, there are not such spearated populations now. Yes, there are remnant places where everybody is descended from such a separated population. But there are also increasing numbers of people whose ancestors came from a mix of such populations. If you are going to delineate races, your categories have to deal with them.
"any definition of "race" that you come up with has to address it -- which race does someone like that belong to"
Since we've already I think established that race is a social, and not a biological construct, none of the examples or reasons you have given matter at all. I completely agree that it is not possible to neatly assign race to all individuals, and that depending on what society someone is in, his race will be different. For example, in Brazil they would say that Barack Obama "pasa" as a white, and he would be accepted as a white.
The problem is, even given this definition of race, we still can show that not all "races" are equal, as you would like to pretend.
Even as a social construct, you still need to do classification on some basis. Unless you take the approach of "I know it when I see it," of course -- but that makes it so individual as to make the term "social construct" questionable.
I fully agree with the "DBA" approach. This is why the US government does not have the resolve to institute compulsory "racial" classification. The current "Affirmative Action" system is applied on voluntary classification. It is legally inconsistent to compel action based on classification, where the classification itself, is not compelled.
@ shikakoen,
On that basis there are no races or subspecies in other mammals either. Read some population genetics studies discussed here.
http://www.ln.edu.hk/philoso/staff/sesardic/getfile.php?file=Race.pdf
If you're a creationist, God made man in his image and he made him perfect. There are no "subspecies" of man.
If you're a rationalist, you can surely provide me with said list of races and criteria for making the determination. Even your link says, "My aim in this paper was not to prove the biological reality of race." Guess why? He couldn't. You can't. If you can, do it. I'll be trolling around right here.
You could use the definition Jerry Coyne mentions:
"In my own field of evolutionary biology, races of animals (also called “subspecies” or “ecotypes”) are morphologically distinguishable populations that live in allopatry (i.e. are geographically separated). There is no firm criterion on how much morphological difference it takes to delimit a race. Races of mice, for example, are described solely on the basis of difference in coat color, which could involve only one or two genes.
Under that criterion, are there human races?
Yes. As we all know, there are morphologically different groups of people who live in different areas, though those differences are blurring due to recent innovations in transportation that have led to more admixture between human groups.
How many human races are there?
That’s pretty much unanswerable, because human variation is nested in groups, for their ancestry, which is based on evolutionary differences, is nested in groups. So, for example, one could delimit “Caucasians” as a race, but within that group there are genetically different and morphologically different subgroups, including Finns, southern Europeans, Bedouins, and the like. The number of human races delimited by biologists has ranged from three to over thirty."
http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/are-there-human-races/
The major geographic races are discussed by Neil Risch & colleagues here.
http://genomebiology.com/2002/3/7/comment/2007
That's an issue with sub-species generally. You get zones of intergradation. Otherwise you'd be talking about different species. Nonetheless, it's easy enough to group people into major clusters which reflect geographic ancestry or race.
http://genomebiology.com/2002/3/7/comment/2007
THANK YOU!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!! You just proved my point!
"There is no firm criterion on how much morphological difference it takes to delimit a race."
According to your own source it's subjective BS and does not exist. Oh, that's beautiful. Just like some people praise Robert Rauschenberg's "White Paintings" as "ART" (or even paintings). More like empty canvases collected from a dump.
I guess, to me, if Derbyshire honest-to-god believes the insane things he wrote, is it better that he wrote them? If we are (and I believe it) all prejudiced to some degree, about hundreds of different variables, is it better to get those hateful rants out in the open, or it better to bottle them up, is it better to seek treatment privately or should demons be part of the public discourse?
If there is a scale, and Derbyshire falls on one end, how do we move everyone, Derbyshire, et al in the right direction?
I think your comment is predicated on a misguided idea of "urges" that need "indulging", otherwise they may explode if "bottled up".
I think if you indulge something, you strengthen that behaviour, make it more likely to occur in the future, and in a public discourse sense, shift the Overton window and risk even more extreme discourse.
What risks explosion if "bottled up" are unaddressed *causes*. If someone bumps into you every day, and you just shrug it off, eventually it's likely to fester until you snap and shove back. But it's the cause that needs addressing, not the reaction that needs indulging. The right answer isn't a free for all on shoving; it's a conversation (and potential escalation to lawful action) with the person who's doing the bumping.
I don't at all buy into your racial hatred ejaculation theory. I think its apologizing for Derbyshire and suggests that those of us who do not ejaculate racial hatred are seething with anxiety.
... I think its apologizing for Derbyshire and suggests that those of us who do not ejaculate racial hatred are seething with anxiety.
Love your comment.
Thanks.
If you look at the revealed behavior of people (liberals and conservatives) rather than avowed behavior, I think you will find they tend to tacitly follow much of Derbyshire's advice. People are good at pattern recognition.
Statistically he is correct too. I'd recommend Anthony Walsh’s “Race & Crime: A bio-social analysis”, or the chapter by John Paul Wright ‘Inconvenient Truths: Science, Race & Crime’ in “Biosocial Criminology: New Directions in Theory and Research” by Kevin Beaver and Walsh (you can access a lot of the material on google books).
What insane things? Observe human behavior - a large portion of people (liberal or conservative) tacitly follow his advice because it is common sense.