Greeks say they are the hardest-working European nation

@Pumpernickel_

A very good explanation for the odd utterances we notice coming out of Greece: Self-hatred.

(German) http://www.welt.de/kultur/article13673381/Die-Wut-der-Griechen-ist-reine...

Since I read this article last year I see many things in a different light. I think it is very consistent with reality.

There are up to 1 million civil servants (and still nothing works there!), one quater of the population are retired, many early.

Then there are the taxy drivers, lorry drivers etc...

What happens to people who have no real skills and have nothing usefull to do?

What gives people dignity and self-respect?

Their "welfare system" distorted the whole economy and thereby destroyed their society.

You know of our sad situation, at least don't attack us so much :(. Or better yet visit us :D. Tourism really needs a boost and prices have fallen.

"Germany today are what the Jews were not so long ago, a convenient means for some to deflect their hate and frustration."

except that the Greeks will never bother to send the Germans into concentration camps, but rather will cheat on you. Merkel and her clique deserve their contempt as ones of the few rulers that tried to enslave them since centuries, it's the weaks vs the powerfuls, so, if you want to recover your mind peace, let the Greeks recover and enjoy their autonomy, or leave them !

“Tax evasion in Greece is between 12 to 15 % of GDP, which is between 40 and 45 billion Euro per annum."

Do you know the "TEM" currency that Greeks use to trade? It's a perfect tax avoidance currency!

There was an emergency tax this year charged through the electricity bills in two installments,
Property tax is not paid through the bill , but there is a council tax (municipal tax)

It was announved a few days ago that seizures of properties for unpaid taxes have started.

EX: A well known journalist in Athens, a journalist has 4 expensive homes in Greece , ranging from a swanky penthousein Athens , to an island estate, to a northern suberb villa, etc and has never paid any taxes , the bailiffs are plining up writs for other debts he has too, but nothing has happened yet. He also has a home in Miami and a flat in Paris. This is someone who started penniless 20 years ago, but through political connections and bribery got wealthy fast.. The Greeks will understand what I mean
However, I heard that he has now been caught by the Fraud Office , and let out on a 500,000 euro bail( or about) It sounds like finally the properties will be auctioned to pay the taxes and the debts. So, finally the system is improving

Let me give you an example to clarify:
When I was in Athens about 3 weeks ago, I called a plumber to fix sth in my bathroon, gave him 50 euros but he did not give a receipt.
I also called an electrician , to fix an appliance , another 30 euros , no receipt in sight..

I got in a taxi, and having a chat with the driver , he told me that he brought his kid to a doctor, and upon paying the bill, the doctor said, it is 50 euro with receipt or 40 euro without. The taxi driver preferred to pay 40 and not get a receipt.( This was a private doctor , not refunded by his basic insurance I guess, so receipt is pointless )

So, it is not ONLY the elites that are tax evading. My plumber has a brand new Merc btw, ..

Yesterday, I was at a financial conference (in Geneva) ; a German participant came to speak to me as he found out I am Greek and he said that since he knows that thousands of Greeks are this month sweeping properties in Munich, Berlin and other, may be I also had some cash to dispense to make some real estate investments in Germany . He assured me I could do this in the most tax efficient manner..
Those hundreds , thousand, tens of thousand Greeks who are on a spending spree in Europe right now are mostly self employed Greeks like lawyers, doctors , plumbers,lorry owners , fast food outlet owners , hairdressers etc.
Recently , a hairdresser has been caught in Athens owing 10 mil euros in unpaid taxes. The stories are endless.

"let the Greeks recover and enjoy their autonomy".

Yes, it's in the Greeks hands. They should vote 'to leave' June 21, so they can recover with their own currency the way and pace they chose. Then "Merkel and her clique" won't have to scoop good taxpayer's money after bad any longer . . . and also no bad feelings anymore.

And, then Greeks don't have to run around any longer with hate-posters, picturing Germans as Nazis . . . and the Germans might even come back one day as tourists. Now with all that slandering and hatemongering in Greece, normal German tourists stay away.

Merkel never gave a cent to Greece, it's the banks Dummkopf

but german taxpayers will pay their banks losses when they'll get out the EZ

The Germans are paying for Merkel short sight policy

The exposure of German banks in Greece is much lower than the transferred aid payments not to speak about guarantees!
If Greece wouldn't have received the payments of northern European countries guess what would have happened? -I give you a hint: No wage cuts by 20-30%, but default and wage cuts by 100%.
But I agree, German taxpayers should be focused on rescuring their f..kin' banks and not on preserving unsustainable situations of countries living beyond their means.
We should have better transferred the billions to African countries who desperately need it and not to the arrogant 'big mouth and nothing behind' mongers nations of the 'olive-and-fakelaki belt'!

It would be interesting to see how this guy came up with this figure. Either it's off the top of his head, in which case why is he in that position, or he has concrete dat, in which case, who do you wantto go after the tax evaders? Average citizens or the ones that are paid to do so?

@ Pumpernickel_

I am really curius myself about this number. I am not really sure how he calculated that percentage. I am also quite sure that 12-15% of Greek GDP even in 2008 terms (since now it is much lower) is not evn close to 40 Billion Euros. I am not saying that there is no tax evation, I already accepted that there is too much tax evation from certain groups, I am only saying that these numbers do not seem to be very accurate.
Anyway, if you want my opinion about why Greece has failed to stop this massive tax evation from certain parties, I would point out the following factors (always imo):

1. Corruption. Many control mechanisms do not operate due to high levels of corruption of responsible civil cervants.

2. Lack of proper control mechanisms: there are very poor control mechanisms, in terms of computerized processes that will detect fraudulent or tax evative transactions.

3. Control override by politisians: Politicians have (in purpose imo) chosen to create a control and legal framework that allows corruption to flourish. Allowing tax evation, is a means of creating "black money", some of which always ends up in the right pockets. It's sad to accept that this is happening on such a large scale, but it is and it has been this way for the last 30 years at least and by both major political parties.

4. Laws are not enforced: I could tell you of many real life stories of how people have been caught cheating and have not been punished because they either had the right political connections, or because the legal system is really bad. In some cases, people that have not been honest in tax paying get away with paying less tax than people that were honest and prudent.

So, are the Germans responsible for the above: Hell now. But the austerity measures they have impossed to Greece by Germany (and equally important, the poor implementation by the Greek government) has proven catastrophic. What I mean is, Germany requests from the Greek government to take measures and show some results right now, but without taking under consideration the current situation of the country and the systemic weaknesses that I mentioned above.
For example: How can you expect a country with a poor tax collecting system and high level of corruption to collect more taxes, while at the same time the crysis has crippled the country's economy? The government has impossed a dozen new taxes to achieve this goal because it knows that it is impossible to reform the poor tax collecting mechanisms and change all the above weaknesses in such a short period. The result is that the same groups that have been paying there taxes so far (the ones I mentioned in my first post) are required to pay extremely heave burdens. The other groups that were tax evading, keep on tax evading because the problem that allowed them to do that in the first place has not been dealt with. This has been going on for the last 2 years and has led large parts of the population in extreme economical crysis. And this has made people angry: Angry against the people that have led the country in this posistion (the governments and more specifically the 2 major political parties, PASOK and ND) but also against those that have impossed those measures (i.e. Germany).
I think that troika should have offered more in solving those big problems of the Greek economy (i.e. expertise and state of the art systems and processes that could help reform the poor tax collection system) instead of setting high goals that are bound to fail in the end.
If I lended my money to anyone, I would not only want to check on the progress of the promises he has made in order to repay me. I would work hands on in making sure that he will actually be in a position to repay me.
I think the whole program is moving in a wrong direction. German people are angry for having to lend money to Greece and Greek people are angry because they have made huge sacrifices so far and at the same time they treated in a very bad manner by their EU neighbours. And at the same time they see that their sacrifices are going in vain, since the country has been crippled and it's not looking like things are changing for the better, not by a mile.

Excellent articles all three of them. The one about the Bundesbank below should be required reading. They did not and still do not want to turn over the power to a strong European Central Bank. Of course not.

As for politicians and why they say one thing, and do the exact opposite. We call it double speak here in the US. My father's expression for it was: Mas petane skoni sta matia. For the non Greek reader: They are throwing dust in our eyes. It is a diversionary tactic, so their true constituency can run off with the loot...laughs

PS - Legally of course, with all of the necessary documents signed by all concerned parties...laughs

Ahhh, A Greek mind is a terrible thing to waste!

Pumpy:

My great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather were tax collectors for the Liberal regime of the mid-1800's. The former left a saying in the family, "Every Lira that goes to the State is one that does not go to the Church".
You see, building the Civil State was a religious crusade in our part of the world. My great-granddad felt that the peasants were going to be fleeced anyway - much better that the money went to building schools, hospitals, roads and factories.

The battle against tax evasion has been going on for many decades. It worsened with the advent of Christian Democrats, who "pardoned" not paying your taxes to the Civil State - best to keep the State weak...

The underground economy in Germany is estimated at 14%; in Italy before the recent crisis at 18.5%, although there are some who claim the number has risen to 22% with the crisis. Greece's underground economy is said to be at 30%. Keep in mind that one of the largest underground elements in all our societies is the drug trade - until we are willing to completely legalise this...

Rich Greeks are moving their money abroad. Middle-class Greeks are now moving their money abroad. That is why Merkel/Germany's approach is not working. FIRST, both Greeks and the world need to be convinced the country will not collapse economically. Otherwise, middle-class Greeks are moving money abroad and under the mattress, just to guarantee survival.

Yes, a few billion GIFTED - against guarantees and monitoring of continued austerity programmes - would be the best way to convince Greeks to pay their taxes - that their economy will not collapse.

Such a strategy would be essentially una tantum (one-off), and therefore involve much less moral hazard than Euro-bonds, which do not convince me.

Gifting a few billion would have no discernible effect on German, French, Italian and Beneluxembourgeois accounts. We could easily afford it - and thus buy austerity programmes another year's time. Kicking the can down the road - cheaply - is the very best strategy.

In another year, Portugal will be off intensive care; Ireland's deficit will come back down to earth; the European economy will begin (slowly) coming out of recession; the Spanish banking problem will be addressed, by recapitalising their banks with public money (so their total debt increases by 10%, to 78% of gdp... et alors? It would still be below Germany's.) In another year's time Italy will have achieved a deficit below 2% for 2012 and be in the midst of publicly targeting a surplus. France and the Netherlands and Belgium will have brought their deficits back toward/under Maastricht's 3%.
And, Greece will be able to target a deficit of 3% for 2013, on their own steam.

Or, all of Europe goes ka-boom.

And German stubborn meanness (in the British sense of the term) will be to blame.

In other words,

The battle against tax evasion takes years; but the battle to save Europe only has weeks at its disposal.

Remember Zorbas,

Greece is an obsession here. Draghi and Monti and their entire generation, like many generations before them, were required to study Ancient Greek in High School. Our obsession/love of Greece drove us to attempt to dominate/conquer the country so many times. Not any hatred. Perish the thought.

The Duchy of Naxos, Lord Gattilusio/Gatelouzo of Lesbos, the Maona of Chios, the Vatican's Knights of Rhodes, the Duchy of Athens... we have a long history of attempting to occupy Greece. And Venice was also in Corfu for a very long time... Not to mention Cyprus, long divided between Venice and Genoa. The Pontine Greek Kingdom of Trebizond, dominated by Genoa...

In their vast naiveté, the Italian Fascists actually thought the Greeks would not fight for their country. Their resistance only increased our respect. Haven't you ever seen Gabriele Salvatores' "Mediterraneo"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebEwzoNdY7M

Finally, gifting a few billion is an excellent idea - it expresses a quid pro quo. And something else called Solidarity.

Plus, the money is not going to go to the politicians anyway, but to pay creditors, right?

'Haven't you ever seen Gabriele Salvatores' "Mediterraneo"?'

How are you my freind? I have! Loved it of course. One of my favorite movies of all time. Especially the ending. All through the picture the Italian soldiers, who have had enough of the war by the way, are dieing to get off of the island. Of course they finally do, only to return to live there in their old age. Upon their return, they all are sitting at the kitchen table cleaning egg plant, and discussing how terrible things turned out in their home countries, and how they should have never left...laughs

By the way, my uncle Christo has fond memories of the Italian soldiers during the war. I know the Italians well. Have many life long Italian friends here in the States. Hard working humanitarians the whole lot of them. But just like the Greeks, they take strong offense at being played for fools.

I must watch that movie again with my son. I don't think he has seen it yet. He loves Greece you know. I have not prejudiced him in any way as many Greek parents do. He came to love Greece more then Germany on his own. Probably because of what his teachers teach him about ancient Greek history in school.

And don't forget Constantinople, the Eastern Roman Enpire. My father's favorite topic. You can still see the remnants of the Byzantine fortification wall in the Port City of Hania. Where my father's family comes from. The Venice of the East as my wife likes to call it. His father was trained in the arts by the way, and was well off to start life as a child of course, but the wars, and he fought in several of them, ruined everything.

Kind regards,
Zorbas

PS - Yes I agree Milovan. I too believe this situation with Greece was miss handled. Money is leaving the periphery nations at a sharp clip from what I read and hear. Seeking safety in Germany no less. So, it appears we have our motive now for this hands off austerity policy. For those with eyes to see that is.

I agree with you. Just keep in mind that we are talking about different cultures here.

Modern Greeks never had the chance to go through a "Renaissance", a "French Revolution", an "Industrial Revolution", the forming of a sound middle class, the liberation from orthodoxy (the belief that something holds/represents the absolute truth), the ability to self-assess, to admit they might be wrong and try to adopt a different paradeigm.

In a way, the Greek society is a living anachronism. It's one of the last medieval societies in Europe. They are devided into independent casts with conflicting financial interests, which they manage to secure by law.

It's what they call "closed-up professions": for total of at least 450 different occupations (for self-employed business people), there are various barriers prohibiting new players. Kafka would be envious.

Also, their history does not help. The period from WWII until now, is the single longest period of continuous peace in the geographical area occupied by Greece, in the last 2500 years. Did you know that? Can you imagine what this can do to the collective subconscious of a people? Would they go for "let's build this for the generations to come" or for "take the money and run, before a new catastrophe hits you"?

I'm not even going to go into how many 10ths of billions of Euro have been "invested" in French, German and US armaments, during the last few decades, and how much difference it would have made to the real economy if they had been put to good use...

I'm not trying to justify Greeks. I'm just saying, there's more to all this, than meets the eye. Greece need a total conceptual/mental makeover, and that takes time. Decades, maybe.

Yea absolutely. Unfortunately, not everyone would share the same view though as to where Greeks are really coming from. As another European citizen who pays their taxes right all you'd care about, which I think is fair to say, is we all have to play by the rules. That's either you are in or out. And this view certainly doesn't fit your assessment of the Greece mentality. And certainly a type of mentality that was not embedded within the aim to harmonise the EU. Perhaps, Germany will not like the idea of bailing out Greece for decades. What can they do? Nothing. They can't just force a whole nation to change overnight. Now, how many more bail-outs do they need before they actually realised that the problem is deeper than they thought?

Like you said, they need a total conceptual or mental makeover. As painful as it is for everyone I think the only solution now is for Greece to exit the Eurozone. It's just crazy to imagine what would happen next to the peripheral country like Spain, Italy or even to the whole of EU when this happens. Surely, could be worst than Lehman Brothers.

Hard-working in the perception non-economists, which is the vast majority of the people in the world, means how many hours you work a day, and Greece is at the top of the list whether you like it or not.

What don't you understand? In a country of 10 mil, you will find 100 idiots, that's normal. The fact that the government and mainstream political parties had abandoned entire neighborhoods and done nothing about their security would make ordinary people turn to those who do something about the problem. And this is a major problem with Greece: That the people we support now with the Troika, e.g. Samaras, venizelos etc are the ones responsible for this situation, so it is quite understandable that the greeks want them out. After all for 30 years they have paid no attention to what needed to be done. This is exactly what gives rise to the likes of Tsipras and Golden Dawn. Any help to Greece should have been conditional to getting rid of the two parties that brought the country to this mess. The reason greeks turn to these parties is that the measures requested are obviously just pain with no gain: They actually increase the deficit and this is also obvious. So it's not that greeks got nazi or crazy or communist overnight: They are asked to make a decision between a path that is sure doom(e.g. the Troika way) and a path that
is highly risky and dangerous. If I were greek, I'd take the second path except that such a path needs a very competent captain at the helm, and none of the proponents of that path is competent at all.

Probably because a conservative no-action eastern German chancellor isn't nazi-y enough for them.

Icarus 1982??? No no, I think the crime was committed in 1981: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4iZe6Lc0AA :)

They're not saluting Hitler. They claim that the so-called nazi salutation is a military salutation which is not restricted to the nazi. Nobody in Greece blames Germany for all their "failures and misfortunes", you're living in a parallel reality, like the majority of pseudo-intellectuals in Europe.

Nobody forced Greece to join eu and euro zone. Rather it was Greece that lied to join euro zone. It's time Greeks to stop blaming innocent others and prosecute Greek politicians and bureaucrats who cooked the books and misled Greeks! Otherwise your problems will get deepened forever!

A global non jet-setting working man's sage if you will. I will accept an unprecedented # of recommendations for this last comment. I know, I know, like Dora Bakoyannis, you're all jealous and overly confident in what you mistakenly believe to be your analytical abilities...laughs

PS - Present company excluded of course Pumper. Besides, I like you. When I like somebody, all bets are off. You know who understands what is going on here? Mr. Arcadian. Greek, German, Israeli... It don't matter. Your either get it or you don't. When you don't, you got to argue like an attorney defending the same position all of the time. How boring. I'm after the truth, so I know where not to put my hard earned money.

yes, it's the end, and those that will be bitter aren't your fellows, but the northeners !

Έχω ήδη απαγορευτεί εδώ, δεν τους αρέσει η ελευθερία της σκέψης

Zorbas,

I can understand your bitterness and really do feel sorry for the ordinary Greek people. Keeping them in the Euro two years ago might have been peanuts compared to what it will cost now, no matter which way the dice fall.

Perhaps big strategic mistakes were made. I really do not know what would have been the best way to proceed. I do know, however, that Angela Merkel did not decide this based on her own judgement. She talked to a lot of people and read a lot of analyses by people smarter than her in economic matters before she reached her conclusions. It is the German way to do things. A bit like playing chess trying to calculate five moves or more ahead, like viva.

I also believe that she cared and still cares for the fate of the Greek ordinary people, no matter how shameless and cynical Greek politicians acted in the matter. Therefore, I believe some kind of Marshall plan will be worked out if and when the Greeks leave the Euro zone. They will extract the highest price for leaving. They will be bribed to leave for only with Greece out will there be a chance that confidence in Spain, Portugal and Ireland will return by “the markets”.

Germany then will have the confidence and courage to take the plunge but never blindly. The joker in the game is Monsieur Hollande. If he, as I am convinced, proves to be more than just another stupid socialist after the parliamentary French elections on the 10th and 17th June and then he and Angela do what German Chancellors and French Presidents always did in the time of crises, stick together, then Euroland will be saved and the Greeks will be helped back on their feet inside the EU.

Messieurs les Anglais, tirez les premiers.

you don't understand, the euro is kaput, finish, washed, there will not be the franco-german couple anymore, anyways for what?

Merkel can turn towards Moscow, it's where she belongs !

"That’s why Germany is the No. 1 investor in Greece."

You are too ashamed to confess that German companies in Greece are there to make profits out of profligacy of Greek consumers! They are not there to give Greeks jobs and opportunity to export. I wrote a comment on multinationals in Poland and how they are helping Polish economy. German companies in Greece are not the same thing!

get a life

Got one. Get a currency that works for you.

I'm a psychiatrist, so I don't know much about money. But the idea that Germany gets free loans at 0% interest and that that decreases their motivation to stabilise things does make interesting reading. As you point out, it might have knock-on effects for their exports, but. Maybe they could use the money to buy foreign assets at low prices? Now that would be win-win for them. Hmmm. If I ever become the leader of a great power, I might do that sort of thing on purpose. You know, restore justice after WWII and what not.

Bundesbank's policy

http://pragcap.com/the-euro-debate-gets-philosophical

Merkel has no understanding on how inter-states relations fonction, it's always a power struggle, in which submission is the rule.

She will not be able to alienate the latin states like Russia did for the former soviet countries, France, Italy, Spain, Greece have a tradition of rebellion, of individuality, of geopolitical expensions, it's not a hazard if latin America speaks spanish, if fast half of Africa speaks french, if Mare Nostrum was latin if the ME was byzantine... What is Germanic?

the former Holly Roman Empire, with a antagonic Poland at east, and a Russia that is awaiting for picking the pieces

The funny part is he's actually Turkish, not German.

Look, telling thorny truth has nothing to do with racism. That's why my comments are not deleted by moderators. Obviously xenophobia and blaming foreigners is racism!

By that train of thought Greeks can say that the bad situation of the world economy, and the fact that the EU allows low tech products which it produces to be imported from poorer countries, is to blame for the current predicament.

You can try to make excuses all you want. I didn't say it was morally right for other countries do demand Germany to bail them out. I just explained to you why they thought that.

On the other hand I think it is VERY morally wrong to try to say that somehow it wasn't exactly Germans who committed those war crimes. And no one ever said the U.S.S.R was good.

It's like Turkey who is saying that the Ottoman empire commited the Armenian genocide, not Turkey.

I'm terribly sorry, but I am struggling to understand the exact nature of the points you have made in your previous post. Perhaps you might be able to clarify them. Assigning each of your paragraphs a number:

1. I am not sure "what train of thought" you are referring to. Furthermore, I am not sure how removing trade barriers can be identified as the immediate and sole cause of the Greek economic crisis. It appears that the two most serious problems are: (1) an uncompetivie, sclerotic economy over-burdend by a bloated state; (2) propped up by a pattern of unsustainable government borrowing.

2. I am not quite sure what the exuses you are referring to are. It is quite clear to me why other people think this, I read a rather bizarre article by Beate Klarsfeld in Le Monde entitled "Pourquoi l'Allemagne doit etre genereuse avec la Grece - Elle a des dettes morales a acquitter envers ce pays" on Monday which made precisely this point. I was more interested in pointing out why I regarded the logic underpinning this particular argument to be seriously flawed.

3. I never meant to suggest that Germans did not commit war-crimes during World War II. I simply wished to suggest that: (1) the morality of twentieth century European politics is too complicated to be read as a black and white morality play. And (2): what it means to say that "Germany" did something as though the contemporary German state is somehow responsible for the decisions of a violent clique which held power in Germany sixty years ago between 1933 and 1945.

4. I think that Turkey is probably quite right to suggest that insofar as no one alive today in Turkey had any role in the Armenian genocide, it is difficult to assign blame to contemporary Turks for that particular incident. I accept that this raises a broader issue of institutional responsibility.

1)Oh no you don't understand. Greece's faults are of its own making. It's just that I was saying that everyone can come up with cheap excuses for his wrong doing. The problem is that sometimes he starts to believe them.

3)Dude. I will agree with you in some regard, but if you go to the page about Obama calling the death camps "Polish" and if you will see some of the comments made by some Germans you'd think that they really think it was a totally other country that committed those crimes. And I repeat, you can say that it was an evil regime that committed those crimes, just as every hard working honest Greek will say that the crisis was caused by corrupt politicians and rich people and specific professions who avoided paying taxes. And even though both would be somewhat correct, to the eyes of the outside world it doesn't matter. Thus all the personal attacks. And I repeat are all the insults called for when one country's "crime" was to over borrow?

4) wow....I'm sorry I don't think anyone ever asked for them to take responsibility (aka pay compensations) but it is a huge insult to the dead to not even recognize what happened to them.

I will do my best to address the concerns you've raised:

1. Not one hundred per cent clear on what I don't understand. Not really one hundred per cent clear on the point of disagreement you identify here. To the extent that it is much easier to blame a third party rather than accept responsibility for one's owns actions, that seems neither uncontroversial nor particularly insightful.

3. I haven't read the article in question. To the extent that after the rise to power of the Nazis ordinary Germans were unable to engage in a democratic process to influence government policy, and in fact risked death, deportation or torture if they opposed the regime, whereas Greece has committed its present economic suicide under democratic conditions I am not sure that the comparison bears as much weight as you seem to think. The responsibility of a population for the mistakes of a democratic government, or series of governments, seems much larger than if that goverment is a violent tyranny. Turning to your second point, when your 'over borrow[ing]' affects the stabililty of the economic conditions under which a large part of the rest of the world has to live, then it is not unpredictable that those people will take issue with your behaviour. When you accuse the very people who are arranging much needed credit to prevent your country going bankrupt of being Nazis, it is not unpredictable that they wil be less than impressed.

4. My knowledge of the issues surrounding the Armenian genocide is too shallow to make an intelligent comment. However, to the best of my knowledge Armenian groups are seeking reparations from the Turkish state.

I was saying the dictatorship didn't enforce itself, it had a large support from the population.

Again I didn't call you Nazis, but I think it is ugly that you get offended so much by it. It's part of your history. I get attacked by Germans for existing (I was told abroad how dare I go on a trip without asking them if I can spend their money...you have wonderful people over there. It's funny, I thought it was the Greek society that was collapsing and thus people were looking for scapegoats for their troubles and being racist and ect. ...oh wait, it IS Greek society that is collapsing and German society is supposed to be in its best state in years.....so please explain me what justifies all the racism?)

Really? You think Greece, the 2% of the population and probably like 0.05% of the entire world economy, is to blame for the troubles of the global economy? REALLY? Are you seriously making this statement? Cause I have to say, that is quite a weak setup the world has...oh wait, it was really the fuck up in the world's biggest economy in 2008 that started this, and it is the Eurozone's big players reluctancy to do anything real to solve the crisis (one way or the other. Kicking weak members out, or supporting them with real conditions and not unrealistically horrible ones that will just kill the economy, so they don't lose any votes back home) that drove us to this situation. Not the freaking 0.05% of the global economy.

Apropos your first paragraph, I should probably disabuse you by pointing out that I am actually an Australian living in France rather than a German. As such I am a disinterested observer of both countries, except to the extent that I received a bachelors degree in Ancient Greek when I was younger, which, if anything, would most likely make me a Philhellene.

As to your second point, it is really quite complex and I don't have time to do it justice. It is clear that Greece is not the cause of the global economic crisis, but really an accute symptom of a problem which infects a large number of countries. It is also true that the Greek crisis continues to have a significant, and probably disproportionate, impact on the global economy at present.

Your final point, I think brings me back to the point I made in my first post. It is quite obvious why what you term the 'big players', by which I think you mean Germany, since they are the only people who are in a position to do anything, were reluctant to do anything to solve crisis. It is because 'solving the crisis' as you put it involves taking money from prudent Germans and giving it to imprudent Greeks. Germany is a democracy and if the German government transfers a large chunk of its population's wealth to the Greek state to rectify what the German's regard as a self-inflicted crisis, then it will most likely not be returned to office. This is one of the unfortunate symptoms of democracy.

Furthermore, I think you need to understand what is meant by the conditions in question. And please note, I say this without expressing any opinion about whether the measures imposed were right or wrong. Simply put, until Greece was bailed out it was bankrupt. It was incapable of borrowing money at reasonable rates of interest on the world market. It is still borrowing money as we speak because it is still running a budget deficit. Despite all its protestations, it is still living beyond its means. Therefore, Greece is not being denied anything, or having something taken away from it. It is, in actual fact, being given billions of dollars of other people's money to prevent it from going bankrupt. The German people, understandly concerned about their money have chosen to impose conditions upon its receipt which they hope will give them the greatest chance of (a) seeing as much of their money as possible again; and (b) preventing the same sort of crisis occurring in the future. That, to me at least, does not seem like an imprudent course of action.

To the extent that attempting to radically reform the Greek economy quite quickly will be more problematic, create more misery, and be more controversial than a gradual process of reform, I think we are in complete agreement. Unfortunately, a more gradual process of reform would require Germany to give Greece a lot more money for a much longer period of time which is something which they quite understandably seem reluctant to do. Whilst that is unfortunate, I am not sure that they can really be blamed for it.

Actually I meant France too. Simply put they only reason they bailed us out was to save their own banks http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-23/merkel-should-know-her-country-... .

I don't think they care about Greece, and let's be honest they don't have any obligation to. But they bailed us out half assly and the result is that we are just in pain. The painless way would have been morally wrong, the painful way would have allowed us to be cured by now.

All they did was provide a generation of corrupt (Greek) politicians with a means to blackmail their way into staying in power (Tsipars being a part of them too ofc, I'm not one of those stupid countrymen of mine who don't see how corrupt and useless he is).

Greece's budget deficit isn't getting better because the economy keeps shrinking and unemployment going up, so the government's tax income is being reduced. So the pain is for nothing.

And you know what the worst part is? Greece isn't more corrupt than the rest of Southern Europe or Eastern Europe. Most Greeks DO pay their taxes, the only ones who don't are the self employed (problem being that they make tons of money so that lost tax revenue IS a lot of money).

And yet not only is our future dark and bleak, but we are always attacked everywhere, called lazy and cheats. And people are amazed some people will lash back? Besides all the Nazi pictures came from tabloids. The same quality news coverage that brought the Germans all the "100% true info" of ALL Greeks retiring at 50, with a 1500€ retirement salary, or that Germans visiting Greece get stabbed (faaaaar from it, but saying "Greece is still safe to visit" hardly sells any papers)

Unfortunately the media has stolen this debate and turned the 2 people against each other, but forgive me for expecting that the ones who are not suffering and are not depressed cause of a bleak future to be more patient with the others.

Brainless zorba only knows how to decry foreigners and xenophobia! Stupid zorba.

Wow, wow. You are stretching your "logic" to make Greeks "no taxes - generous benefits" years of behavior rightfully demanding Germans to support them and help them more and more really too far ...

Congratulations! You have, in your comment, truly made sticking Jews in ovens seem like something that should be forgiven.

Sorry, not buying it. War is one thing (a terrible thing): the ovens are something that should have provoked a much more terrible punishment (eye for an eye anyone?).

We all get 2nd chances, and this is Germany's. They've done ok so far, I guess. But to say, "it wasn't us!" is just ridiculous. That the concentration camp guard was "just doing his job" is a societal problem that I do not think has been fundamentally addressed in German culture in the way it has in the UK and America.

Sorry, but I found your comment quite well written and thought out and even more distasteful for it.

As for the Greeks? Who cares. Bon Chance!

I should add that: (1) I have a great deal of sympathy for the many ordinary Greeks who are no doubt suffering at present; and (2) contra mundum I believe that were Greece to leave the Eurozone and attempt to refloat the Drachma, the consequences would be diabolical, up to, and including, the distinct possibility of a civil war.

I find your comment both offensive and confusing.

First, I hope that I haven't suggested that those who committed acts of genocide against Jewish people during and leading up to World War II deserve to be forgiven. What I hoped to suggest is that treating the German people as collectively responsible for the Holocaust is a very simplistic approach to a very complex problem of responsibility, and that trying to extrapolate out from that question of responsibility to a contemporary German economic responsibility for the Greek people as a collective is even more fraught.

Let us take as a thought experiment, a German girl who was born in Prussia 1925, and was thus 8 years of age when Hitler came to power. She is not enfranchised and cannot vote. At the beginning of the war she was 14 and may perhaps with a young adolescent's enthusiasm 'supported' the partition of Poland and Germany during the war, but is not, I don't think old and mature enough to enjoy moral agency, or capable of influencing German foreign policy. In 1945, she is 20. She is gang raped by advancing Red Army soldiers, most of her family are killed, all her possessions are stripped from her, and she becomes a refugee when Prussia is destroyed and annexed by various Eastern Block countries, thus destroying a Teutonic civilisation which is more than 600 years old. She then lives in East Germany under the privation of communist rule until 1990 when she is 65. I don't think that she can be 'blamed' as part of a lumpen whole for atrocities committed by Germany during the Second World War, or be anything other than a victim of World War II or its aftermath.

Second, those who enjoy the criticising the behaviour of ordinary Germans after the Nazi's rose to power might wish to reflect upon what their own behaviour might have been in similar circumstances. I think it is a fairly safe assumption that like the great majority of people they would have 'gone along' with the gradual destruction of civil liberties under threat of violent thuggery until things were too late in order to avoid risking their own lives. Even to suggest that the Nazi's enjoyed broad support is a complex question, which demands a complex answer - after all it was not a democracy in which public support could be properly gauged periodically. I don't think anyone would argue that the Nazi's were voted into power in 1933 on a platform of committing the Holocaust. I think it is safe to assume that most societies are made of 10% good, 10% bad, and 80% ordinary, and that when the 10% bad are in charge the 80% ordinary simply accede to the dominant paradigm, generally for understandable fear of physical violence if they don't.

Third, your comment 'As for the Greeks? Who cares. Bon Chance!' seems completely at odds with your previous comments which suggest that moral behaviour is important. Why could one not just as easily have said in 1938 "As for the Jews? Who cares. Bon Chance!'. At the moment, an enormous number of Greek people are no doubt suffering under a financial catastrophe for which the majority them share a very limited responsibility - the responsibility which all people share for simply conforming to things as they are, or looking to their own narrow interest rather than seeking to create self-less change. They are both the authors and the vicitms of a societal and governance failure whose repurcussions will no doubt have a profound impact on their standard of living for the foreseeable future. To suggest that one should treat with indifference the Greek pensioner who is picking through garbage in an Athenian street in order to eke out an existence seems quite callous. Especially because anyone who has been to Greece can probably attest to what a magnificient and hospitable people the Greeks are.

Fourth, I think that is also important to recognise that the Greek bail-out is as much a bail-out of European banks which have exposure to Greek debt as a bail-out of the Greek people per se. This fact has only be underscored by recent proposals for much of the bailout not even to pass through Greek hands, but to be maintained in an escrow account for their benefit. Whilst the risk attaching to lending to Greece might have been hidden by their membership of the Eurozone, the educated people tasked with performing due dilligence on Greek loans are, if anything, more responsible for the failure to adequately quantify the risk in those loans and thereby allowing them to be made in the first place, since it was they, and not the Greeks themselves, who had control over dispensing money to third parties. Not doubt tragically, like the Greeks in the last ten years, like the majority of Germans between 1933 and 1945, and like the majority of people who have ever lived, they were all too humanly 'just going along with the system'.

Your command of thought is refreshing and appreciated as are your references to factual data without watching the ego twisting within them; rather generalled from a distance.

There does come a point where swatting the unarmed on shifting ground really is more calisthenics than argument. It was interesting watching your use of history instantly make you both German and a German apologist.

In all seriousness, you may want to consider writing formally at some point if you don't already.

Thank you. That is far too kind.

I think the problem is not that Greece is not safe to visit, it is just not pleasent for Germans. Why would you spend your holiday there when you are being treated unfriendly? Not from every Greek of cource but still from enough that you feel uncomfortable. That's simply not what you want to be during your vacations.

"With your wages? It's like advising someone to move to China/India."

How much can you earn without German tax payers handouts? Soon you will earn lots more in China than in Greece. Once the euro trenches stop arrieving, your wages will be much lower than those of Albanians. You will just have to envy Turks!

Please don't recommend your own posts, it's sad.

Anyway, even if we get kicked out of the € and our GDP drops by 50% the average Greek would still make more money than a country which is 50% developing and 50% 3rd world.

They are not barbarian enough to work in Germany. There is no job for civilised people!

Look, everyone has entitlement to recommend once!

Dr Doom Marc Faber is saying Greek GDP will drop 50% to 70%. Me think it will be at least 70%. Greece has nothing worth to export other than debt defaults!

WHatever. We'll be here again in 5-10 years when your economy will be collapsing again.

I know, it's sad, but this blog is all he's got.
Trolling for German love in all the wrong places,
trolling for love,
and too many faces...Eddie Rabbit

The fact that Turkey has an increasing economy does not mean that the people has better quality of life there.

When Turkey was left out of the Euro, their currency was devalued 300% almost over night! With this competitive advantage they were able to manufacture lots of low tech stuff. Here in America we were buying Pyrex drinking glasses manufactured in Turkey.
Germany had to carry Greece. They opted not to by choosing a looser monetary union where each member had to fend for itself. Now Greece will be cut loose, and with the new drachma, we will be able to do what we do best, tourism and agricultural products.
Unfortunately, the houses that Greeks built and own outright for the most part, will not be able to be sold for Euros easily, but this has been the case anyway for quite some time now.
Let's face it, the Greeks are famous for attributing unrealistic prices to their homes. It is a good thing most are not actually trying to sell them, or they would quickly be forced to face the cruel reality that there are no buyers.
Look at the bright side. We are lucky we are not foreigners who bought property and built homes in Greece. Just imagine how they must feel. The Germans who bought property in Sparta for instance...laughs
Kind regards,
Zorbas
PS - Akinita ta legame, kai aknita ginane ksana.

"The fact that Turkey has an increasing economy does not mean that the people has better quality of life there."

Of course! They are living on their own means. But they will improve gradually. You cannot compare with Greek bond sniffing profligate life!

We made a mistake by getting involved with you idiots and the Euro, but not too big a mistake. Don't forget, we're still holding the Euros...laughs

I told you before, we've been around for 5,000 years. You cannot outsmart us. Others before you have tried, and failed miserably.

You should have played ball. Now we will be your undoing.

Yes but you were Turkish colony about 500 years.

Not sure how that is relevant in and of itself. You will need to expand on that thought for me to comment further.

Many already have -

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2010/11/16/more-and-more-greeks-seek-wor...

By the look of it, they are'nt doing too badly. I supposing working in Turkey beats being on the dole in Greece.